Need help from 109Gx experten!

[GRUNHERZ]

I'm sure it would have no trouble blowing through thin alumim skin at over 600 yards - and it would certaily detonate.


Beetle I know that the AH gunnery model has issue with long range shooting for all the guns. I have even killed P47s with 2 x13mm on 109 at 850 yards....  

But as far as AH is concerned a 600 yard 30mm hit is possible, even that 90 degree delection shou I made at over 600.

[Dead Man Flying]

The one thing I think is really cool about Forgotten Battles is that the Hispanos on the Hurricane IIC there work almost exactly like the ones in Aces High.  They have a relatively straight firing arc, and they shred enemy planes in one snapshot.

Looks like Maddox agrees about the uberness of the Hizookas after all.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Wlfgng]

yep, that's ONE of the really cool things about FB

[Urchin]

Gondolas aren't really a good idea, in my opinion.  Take the 109G10.  Take the main arena.  

Ok, 109G10 vs La7.  La7 is faster, accelerates better, climbs the same, turns better, rolls better, and has more firepower.  Difference in performance?  I'd say an average la7 pilot could beat a good 109G10 pilot about 7 of 10 or so.

Now take the gondolas and put them on.  Now the la7 is still faster, climbs better, turns a LOT better, still rolls better, and has roughly the same firepower.  I'd say an average la7 pilot would beat a good G10 pilot with gondolas about 9 of 10 times.

G10 vs P51D.  Speeds are roughly similar, 109 accelerates a lot better, P51 turns a lot better, P51 rolls better, P51 has more firepower.  I'd say a fight between 2 good pilots would probably go the P51's way about 6/4 or so.  

G10 with gondolas vs. P51D.  P51 is faster.  109 still accelerates better, P51 still turns better (by a wider margin), P51 rolls better (by a wider margin), 109G10 has marginally more firepower.  I'd still give odds to the P51 pilot, probably around the same odds as without gondolas.

G10 vs Spit 9.  G10 is a lot faster, acceleration is roughly similar, the G10 climbs better at low alt, with the Spit closing the gap as altitude increases (at low level the G10 should easily outclimb a Spit 9, which is really the only applicable alt), Spit turns a lot better, Spit has a lot more firepower.  A good G10 pilot vs a good Spit 9 pilot is probably a draw.  Call it 5/5, although most fights would be stalemated.

G10 with gondolas.  G10 is still faster, Spit accelerates better, the G10 still climbs better but it has nowhere near the margin of superiority it had (and it may catch a Hizooka round in the bellybutton for trying to outzoom or spiral climb a Spit 9), Spit still turns and rolls better... and spit STILL has more firepower.  I'd say a good apit 9 pilot would probably kick the crap out of a good 109 pilot with gondolas, simply because the gondolas ruin the vertical performance of the 109.

G10 vs N1K.  Basically the same fight as a spit.  Same strengths and weaknesses, although the G10 definately outaccelerates the N1K.  Firepower goes to the N1K.

G10 with gondolas vs N1K.  Still the same strengths and weaknesses- the gondolas hurt vertical performance enough that I wouldnt try to spiral climb or zoom away, because you'll get killed.  Firepower still goes to the N1K.  

And for those of you wondering how I calculate 'firepower' I just assign the .50 caliber a value of 1 and then compare weapons based on about how many .50s they are worth.  An Mg151 is about 2 .50s, a Hispano is about 4, the la7s and N1K cannons are also around 2, the Mg131 is about .75.  No, it isnt real scientific, but it works in my opinion.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by wetrat
On a map with good, low alt fights a G10 can just rack them up. That's until some dork in a niki comes in 10k above the fight, of course.

ROFL wetrat!  This morning I went up in a G10, killed a P51, then went after another 109. He chose to fight me and we had an excellent scissors fight. I think he lost track of where I was momentarily, and that was the half chance I needed to get him. But he was good - MACZ. And then - a N1K arrived 10K above the fight - LOL! I hoped the 109 could accelerate away from him but it couldn't. I pulled up hard in an immelmann and tried to accelerate away on the reciprocal heading - no good. He got me - dzd.

URCHIN!!!  Many thanks for that cracking piece of analysis. I shall print it off and read it many times. An example to the rest. Here's a guy who has done his homework and has quantified it with figures, instead of just yapping. One of the best posts I have ever read in this forum. Urchin.

[MANDOBLE]

Urchin, I basically agree with you in your comparative. But, while all the adversaries you mentioned are more than capable of killing any buff with a single pass, any 109 1x20mm is going to have a hard time trying the same.

[superpug1]

When I attack someone, its usually a fast fly up his butt while he is preoccupied and waste hit with the the 30mm, then land and get mo ammo, and do it again. If i am forced to get in a bog fight with somthin like a zeke or niki, i run away then shadow them just outa radar range , then attack when he is a few miles from base:D (MUHAHAHA).

My ways for victory:
1) gun pods are a NONO unless u are strafing a defenselass field with cover.
2)Don't dog fight unless u abolutely know u can win without using to much gas up (you'll need it to fun from his freinds).
3)When in doubt, RUN. FAST.

and thats how I win alot.

[cpxxx]

Beet1e,  On the question of use of rudder I tend to agree with Mandoble, use of rudder is practically mandatory on the G10. Remember your 'Effects of controls' exercise. Secondary effect of rudder is roll not wingdrop. It definitely helps  to turn the beast and get the guns to bear. Like you I fly light aircraft, they don't use rudder much. You can pretty much fly them with your feet on the floor but old taildraggers with big engines needed nifty footwork. I don't know if Hartmann and his ilk used the technique but it works here.

I have only just begun to use the G10 so I'm no experten but I find it a stable gun platform at speed. I invariably only get caught out when I try to get into a turning fight with Spits and La7's.

I like the beast and it's ability to climb out of trouble. It will kill you if you don't respect it's limitations though. Nevertheless  once or twice I got on the tail of someone and smirked grimly as he twisted and turned, all to no avail. I like that. I'm no Hartmann even though I share 75% of his name but I'm getting there. I collected three air  to air kills in the space of a single pass down an enemy runway with that big cannon and ran away fast. Very satisfying.

[bozon]

My ways for victory:
1) gun pods are a NONO unless u are strafing a defenselass field with cover.
2)Don't dog fight unless u abolutely know u can win without using to much gas up (you'll need it to fun from his freinds).
3)When in doubt, RUN. FAST.

As long as it doesn't get you bored to death, have it your way

That's the reason I dislike fighting the D9 so much. Most pilots think an E fighter means arriving at 20k, diving through the fight at 500mph, take a shot and run away screeming.

The 109 has so much more to offer then "bore & flee". the 109 is one of my worst rides, but I enjoy the G2 since it's style and ACM is SO different from the P-47.

Bozon

[beet1e]

Originally posted by cpxxx
Remember your 'Effects of controls' exercise. Secondary effect of rudder is roll not wingdrop.  

I barely remember it! It was 20 years ago.  I learned to fly on gliders. My dual ride was a K13, and I flew my first solo in that, then progressed to the single seat K8 (lol) and then "glass ships" - the Astir. Well as you know, the British weather is not conducive to good soaring conditions, and I am not the world's most patient man, so I moved on to get a motor glider rating and started flying longer distances, then added the landplanes rating so that I could fly around Europe. The relevance of this? Well, as you say, the powered planes need very little rudder. Yes you probably could keep your feet on the floor, but co-ordinated flight is much nicer. I never did get sloppy enough not to use the rudder, because in gliders rudder is very important, and you'll need a lot more of it in turns than you would in something like a Cessna 172.

As for rudder secondary effect being roll, hmmm... In this country, the gliding syllabus includes mandatory spin training. I could not go cross country before I'd performed a solo spin over the airfield, watched by an Official Observer. And the way to initiate the spin? Bring the speed back, almost to stall, then progressively add more and more rudder. The wing would drop, and the glider would go into a spin. And whereas at or near stall, the rudder could be used to pick a wing up, this was frowned upon by the more modern instructors. The classic accident to have in a glider was to come in with too little height, and then to be trying to stretch the glide by slowing down, not banking sufficiently in the final turn and trying to make that turn with too much rudder. Stall/spin could be the tragic result. I'll have to try this out in AH...

Got frustrated again with the 109. One of the problems in AH when trying the Hartmann technique (closing to very close range before taking the shot) is that in this *game*, pilots can adjust sounds, and reduce their own engine sound to a whisper (not an option in WW2!) so that they can HEAR when a 109 is creeping up on them, and many of my Hartmann attempts have been thwarted because the guy then does a break turn. So I had a go in the 190D9 and immediately got 5 kills in the first sortie. Amazing how flying the 109 makes me good in other planes. The 190D9 seems to have all the advantages of the P47 and 109, without the disadvantages of either. (The way it's modelled in AH is totally different from how it was modelled in WB, and one wonders if it should be on the dweeb list with the LA7, N1K, Yak-9U, TYPH etc. ) -Crisp elevator response, good climb rate though not quite as good as 109G10, faster than 109G10, fantastic roll rate (essential for B&Z) and the ability to dive on prey without losing control at speed. I'll still keep going back to the 109s, but more and more I wonder if it's all it's cracked up to be.

[cpxxx]

Beet1e, hmm if you flew gliders then you know all about use of rudder.  

You're right, the best way to initiate a spin is to add rudder just above the stall. this causes yaw and roll. The wing on the inside of the yaw stalls first. This is the wingdrop. It's cause and effect really. Wingdrop and roll are different. Roll is controlled, wingdrop is loss of control.  
Exactly as you say adding rudder in the direction of the turn at a low airspeeds, high angles of attack and low level will kill you. However if you add opposite rudder you get a sideslip which is very useful at times and fun I might add.  Maybe it's different for gliders but picking up a dropped wing with opposite  rudder is standard recovery procedure at the incipient stage.  Use of aileron is frowned upon at the secondary effect of ailerons is yaw which has the same effect as adding rudder on the inside of the turn.

How well all this is modelled in AH I don't know but it's worth checking out.

Using rudder in the turn helps overcome the limitations of the G10's roll rate something which is not a problem with the D9. But I think you make an excellent point. Mastering a difficult aeroplane like the G10 can only help improve your skills with others like the D9.

I look forward to the day I get ten kills on a single flight. Hopefully I will remember to turn on the video.

[Ecke-109-]

Why not climbing up to 20k-24k in a 109g10?

It climbs fast ,and so it isnt a great waste of time.High Bombers are my first goal, when reaching a field that needs to be defended.First i check the high altitude area before diving down to play with the guys.
In my opinion,the g10 makes a good job at high altitude.
Maybe MarkL remembers the day when he called me a cheater.
That was after i outmaneuvered his F6f at 20k.

Regards from Ecke

[Pepe]

I *REALLY* like G-10. Despite being considered a "specialist" kinda plane, I find it quite polivalent as a fighter. You can bore your enemy to death by E-fiting, or you can tangle aggresively with him. Your engine will almost everytime will keep you safe.

From my point of view, is one of the most suitable planes to "turn tables" unlike, for instance (and in my opinion) Pony. You only need to make the attacker loose speed, and you have it.

I only have severe problems when I am bounced by La-7. Rest of the breed, I can deal with quite confidently.

On the rudder issue, in my opinion is the "star" control surface. You can use it to force overshoot, and will work wonders because not only will help on the Z axis, but also will make you really bleed energy. Or you can use it for out-of-plane manouvers and will really screw the bad guy aim.

I like Tater G-10 and no Gondolas. Enough firepower for a zillion kills if shoot properly. And shooting properly with 30mm's holds only one secret: get CLOSE. I never open over 150 yds, even if that means I have to work some extra time on my target.

As for tactics, nothing like the spiral climb. Once you get used to it, It's priceless to see cons trying to keep inside your turn, starting to stall and then, when your speed is 130 knots or so, dive to the then stalling target....  

Mind it, I am not the best (or anywhere near) G-10 pilot, these are just some slightly educated ideas after learning to love that beast.

I hope you find it useful  

Regards,

[Batz]

Beetle to get the effect of the Hartman escape the best thing to do is "skid" with your rudder before you push the stick to the upper left.

This will bleed some e and create a faster closure rate for the attacker. Slowly go full left rudder and hold wings level. You will "skid"  and as the attacker closes slam your stick to the upper left (or upper right). You are basically doing a diving oblique "outside loop". What should happen as the bandit closes on you at high speed you slip down below his nose and he will "red out" trying to follow. If he continues straight and climbs he will have lost visual on you. Now if you continued this till you are near verticle you can roll and slip away in the opposite direction.

The trick to this is to use rudder toward the direction you intend to break. You will skid just a bit then enter your "outside loop". This is a quick manuver you dont wanna enter it to soon or the bandit will have no trouble maintaining a visual and setting up for his next pass.

This an "Escape Manuver" used to create seperation so you can extend.

If you are high enough, there is a great escape maneuver that can sometimes even turn the tables on the spit. A diving scissors is what we will call this for now until I see the real name in a book or some other text. This maneuver capitalizes on the 109's smaller turn radius. So, begin a standard split esse, and apply hard down rudder (assuming your view plain is perpendicular to the horizon at this point) as you roll so that your split esse is beginning before you are actually inverted. Pull hard, very hard out of your split esse until you see the horizon again, now roll over inverted again (using rudder again to start the dive early) and repeat this until you will actually cross paths with the spit going in opposite directions (assuming he tryed to match this maneuver and kept his throttle up). If you're still feeling gutsy you now can go vertical, and see what he does, or a wiser choice may be to keep going straight and run for home.

A spiral dive also works well. If the attacker is fast begin a left break taking it tighter as he closes. Keep your nose slightly down and spiral dive keeping as tight as possible. Depending on the attackers speed his turning circle will be wide. After a few turns locate the spit and level and extend away in the opposite direction. Get your speed up and extend away to reasses.

Lets suppose your are at 12k and a bandit is moving into position at your high 6. Now since the bandit is higher then you when he attacks he will be moving much faster. With his speed advantage if he misses his pass expect him to climb into a pitch back manuver. As he closes roll to the left and give your stick some back pressure. You want to time this just right so the bandit doesnt have a chance to get a shot at you. For .50 cal planes and depending on the rate of closure d600 is when I begin this. Now the attacker may cheat a little and try follow your turn for a second to get a better guns solution. What you wanna do is start a barrel roll back in the opposite direction. Keep your barrel roll tight enough so as the bandit blows through you will roll onto his 6 and in range for a snapshot. Now if you miss him he will climb and you may end up in an even worse position. So dont miss.

The key to getting the most out of the 109s is its rudder authority. Kick that rudder in the direction of any break, roll or turn.

[Batz]

Below is basically written for a g6 but can apply to all 109s.

The most effective way to kill a Spitfire is to dive from above to behind and below his level 6. Then pull up to shoot him from underneath. Diving directly at him from his high 6 allows him greater time to see you. Also, the 109s controls in AH stiffen above 400mph. The spitfire can make a quick break that you wont be able to get a shot at. Its important when diving to attack in any 109 to regulate your speed so can maintain control. If the doesnt spit see you, kill him. In all probrability he will see you and do one of the following: A split esse or a break turn. If hes good he will attempt a barrel roll.

If he barrel rolls he is doing his best to conserve energy to climb up and shoot you after you make a failed guns pass. When you are diving on a Spitfire, and he barrel rolls, break off your attack and keep up your speed. Do a climbing turn and regrab to re-asess the situation. You wont survive many mistakes against a well flown spitfire. Understanding when to get aggressive and when to extend will be key in surviving.

If he split esse's and you have set your attack to come up from low six you will have a nice plane form shot, take it. If you miss do not follow him down. Execute a gentle zoom climb and stay above and reset for another attack. He built energy through the diving part of the split esse

A break turning spitfire is a very large target, and with practice you can kill them in a 109 quite easily. You need to watch your speed and closure rate. If your speed is above 400 you controls will be stiff and you wont be able to get a guns solution. If your closure rate is to high then you may not have time to get a guns solution. When the spitfire starts his break turn, the later the better. If your controls are stiff and your closure rate is very high, break off the attack, and zoom climb. Otherwise you risk collision, or completly overshooting the target and getting a hizooka enema. Determining a safe closure rate takes practice and experience.

Most spitfires break turn to the right. You can offset your attack to the left slightly in anticipation of a right break. Be prepared if he goes left though, zoom back up and reset for your next pass. If he starts his break turn more than 500 yards out, zoom back and re-asses the situation. Closer than 500 yards, follow a pure pursuit, until he's 200-300 yards away. The 109 has a decent good instantanious turn rate and with decent speed you can get inside the breaking spit. Switch to a lead pursuit and open fire. He may end up slightly below your nose as you are firing but take your time and get a good shot. You dont wanna turn to hard to get inside. Keep your speed up and dont try and follow a prolonged break. Take your shot if you miss extend away, re-grab and reasses.

Be carefull not to start your climb to late so that you remain behind his 3/9 line. If you zoom late then the spit may nose up and spray and pray. If you catch yourself slipping infront of the spits 3/9 line then extend a bit. But you dont want to extend so far away as to give the spit time to recover.

Once you're at the top of your zoom climb, you need to decide what to do next to kill the spitfire below you. He is now either still turning, running, or is climbing in an effort to shoot you.

If he's still turning, reverse quickly and get back down on his 6 but take care not to overshoot. Roll to match his turn from above, and open fire when you are within 200-300 yards. If you miss, zoom climb again, and repeat as necessary. This is where you need to know when to get aggressive and when to take your time. The more aggressive you are the more "off balance" the spitfire is. But you increase the likelyhood of making a mistake. Learn from each attack.

If he's running, you must decide whether or not to chase him. Check for other enemies in the area first, and if it's clear skies dive down on the fleeing spitfire.

If you zoom late and the spitfire tries to follow you up vertically, you are now at the beginning of a "Rope a Dope." Go vertical, wait till you stall out, hammerhead or loop over and kill him. He will be firing, even though hes slow and near stall he can still aim. Be prepared for the spray and pray. "Rope a Dope's" are one of the most satisfying ways to kill a Spit. But this is risky because of those hizookas. Thats why its important to start your zoom behind the 3/9 line. If you zoom late it may be wiser to extend away and regrab.

All the above takes practice. But as your skill developes you will be able to get aggressive and land the shots necessary to get kills easily. While you are learning you will be tempted to be to aggressive, which will lead to a lot of quick trips to the tower. Or you will be to timid, which will lead to channel 1 harassment. Do not get discouraged, skill comes with practice

The "Merge"

The 109 is at a disadvantage when starting the fight at the same alitude, with the same ammount of energy. These fights usually start with a "merge situation," or head on pass. Do not try to kill on the merge, for many reasons. Try to avoid head on passes as much as possible. With the hizookas the Spitfire has superior firepower. By taking the head on shot you risk collision which is the worst way to end the fight. Lastly, if your opponent is good, he will use the time you are firing at him to do simple evasives, and then gain the advantage in the fight.

The right thing to do in the merge is this: make the spit think your intent is to kill him on the ho pass by heading at him. Offset yourself slightly to 1 side. At 1000 yards, nose down a bit, and enter a gentle dive. Your intention is to go under him. This decieves the Spitfire of your real intention which is to zoom climb up vertically. Start this maneuver at a distance of 100-250 yards away in the merge. Going under him will also make him lose sight of you for a few seconds, and in a dogfight losing sight of your opponent means losing the fight. Dont forget to hit WEP as you go vertical, in fact hit WEP when you see a merge situation developing.

As you are zooming up vertically, look back and see what the spit is doing. If he executes a turn you have won the fight (assuming co e states at the time of the merge). Keep zooming up till you stall, hammerhead down and shoot him dead. This may become a "Rope a Dope" or it may be a shot where he is still turning, and you must use roll in the vertical to match his turn. If the spit zoom climbs up vertically like you did, then you are in trouble (unless your energy was considerably greater than his, if so keep zooming and gain as much of an altitude advantage as possible) . This pilot is smart, and even if he's not as good as you, the spitfire's superior dogfighting ability will catch up with you quick, and send you home in a small boxes. You may want to consider running, or some defensive maneuvers.

To get the real feel of the 109 the best variant to fly is the g6. What makes the g10 good is its speed and power. You can take it from 10 to 20k and be able to out run from most bad situations.

I think that gondolas are pointless on a 109 as I fly with just 3cm. If you need that kinda fire power then really an a5 would be much better. Even with 1 x 2cm in the hub I have had kill streaks of 8 to 10.

Wetrat is not exaggerating were all in a squad (3./JG 2 before that JV 44 Wuerger-Staffel) Urchin, Wetrat, AG, Heinkel, Scot, Ely (Cmorris) etc. If you wanna go ack and check our 109 scores (in all variants) it will give you an idea of what we are saying.

I killed 7 b17s 1 time in a g10 (pre drones) with 1 load of 20mm no rearm.

Most variants of the 109 need to "flown"; you cant really on the plane to get you out of bad situations. The g10 otoh is a rocket.