Author Topic: Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU  (Read 3757 times)

Offline Boroda

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2003, 11:07:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Oh, I'm sorry. I did not realize Tanks were defensless...

But being Russian built, I guess your right.


AFAIK Miko is a T-72 tank commander.

Miko, can you tell us some things about T-72s? I know you didn't serve in the desert, but what are your estimations about reliability, agility and targeting systems efficiency?

As a person who studied to be a weapon engineer I can say that Abrams is defintly vulnerable to D-81 cannon (we used "civilian" names, not the Army 2A-something). And equipped with dynamic protection - it can take several hits from any weapon w/o serious damage.

Offline Sikboy

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2003, 11:10:50 AM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
Because Iraqis started retreating two days before the strike and did not even intend to put up any fight while US strafed defensless columns?


http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65824&perpage=50

Here's a Highway of death thread... in case we want to go down that road (haha!) again :)

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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2003, 11:14:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
AFAIK Miko is a T-72 tank commander.

Miko, can you tell us some things about T-72s? I know you didn't serve in the desert, but what are your estimations about reliability, agility and targeting systems efficiency?

As a person who studied to be a weapon engineer I can say that Abrams is defintly vulnerable to D-81 cannon (we used "civilian" names, not the Army 2A-something). And equipped with dynamic protection - it can take several hits from any weapon w/o serious damage.


What kind of Air Defence weaponry does the T-72 have?

Was the T-80 deployed in Iraq during the first gulf war?

Also, are these tank columns generally escorted by AAA (ZSU-23's Etc) and SAMs?

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2003, 11:43:54 AM »
My speciality was gunner, actually - I got "promoted" to commander and even run a platoon for a while (3 tanks) but shooting was my forte.

 At about 15-20 miles an hour I would hit a target withing 30 degree arc at 1200 meters within 5-7 seconds and then put another two rounds as fast as the mechanism reloaded - 6-8 seconds - all within 1 feet raduis around the point of aim - with HE rounds we practiced with, not sub-caliber penetrators that treavel twice as fast and are easier to aim - not being as critical to range and lead estimation due to much flatter trajectory. And they arrive a second sooner, which may be crucial if he is already pulling the trigger! Those penetrators were rarely used for practice - and never at garrisone ragnes, due to flying way further throughg the target and probably crap inside them - depleted uranium maybe, I have no way to know.

 With those penetrators in real combat I'd probably shave off 5 or so seconds of making a laser distance measurement by setting the sight to 800 meters and compensating by eye via shifting a point of aim.

 The power of such a round shot from 125 mm smooth bore cannon (with additional powder charge compared to the HE one) is enormous, but exact penetration in particular kind of armor - who knows...

 Of course I ws the only one in the regiment capable of such feat - having few friends (I was the only one college-kid) there and many enemies, so little to do but practive while others slacked off. Plus I've alsways loved mechanical stuff, especially those that go "boom" - my Ukrainian home-made guns, bazookas and rocket launchers were quite impressisve.

 Also, I made sure that my tank's stabiliser was not drifting, the cannon properly balanced, the circle of a laser rangefinder in the sight was close to the aiming carret to avoid extra adjustment, the night sight not burned out and the loading/ejection mechanism was working properly - all that having nothing better to do and needing a reason to get out of barracks where I had ongoing "vendettas" with azerbaijan, usbek and western-ukrainian "mafias" going all at once. :)

 So on any shoots with top brass present I was shooting non-stop while making impression that the crew changed all the time - we all dressed same and 90% of our training  and shooting was at night.
 I was also given extra tracer-less MG and main cannon insert ammo (we often used 14.7 insert barrel to simulate the cannon fire) to cross-shoot other's targets.

 The T-72 and it's derivatives (80,90) was lighter tank than western ones - mostly by being 2 feet smaller and presenting much less of a target. The cannod does not depress nearly as low - which makes it harder to shoot down from the pop-up position behind the ridge. But those tanks were not desined with stationary defence in mind but for overrunning Europe and shooting on the go, up at the defenders, not down at the attackers.

 Basically, the technology was as close to the ideal, that within the affective range of a cannon it was up to the quality of the crew - mostly detecting the target and making the first shot a fraction of a second earlier.
 Also, on real life tank maneuvres - and combat not involving tanks - there is usually so much crap and dust in the air that two-mile engagement ranges narrow down to "what the heck is that!? Stop, stop! - Blamm!".

 In reality the quality of serf-drafted, not selected in any way according to technical-savyness soviet crews were atrocious.
 If faced with western tanks in anything near matching numbers, I would have jumped out of a tank (remenbering to ignite the  ammo load as an excuse) and switched to infantry... Especially if such battle happened during the day, since, I am practically colorblind in the green-gray spectrum which is not a good survival trait for a gunner in real combat, success in practice nonwithstanding. :)

 I can only guess about the quality and motivation of the Iraqi crews and the extent of their training. If you have a guy with a

 miko
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 07:36:10 PM by miko2d »

Offline muckmaw

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2003, 11:50:47 AM »
Miko-

What about Air Defenses traveling in your tank convoy?

Did the T-72, 80, and 90 have any built in Anti Aircraft guns?

Were there any t-80s or t-90s in Iraq during the first gulf war?

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2003, 11:57:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
blah blah blah


Just kidding. Miko, that was a great post. Very interesting reading.

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Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2003, 12:02:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
 Their art director is a friend of mine :)


Send my congratulations to your friend! Its a very attractive magazine :)

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Offline miko2d

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2003, 12:07:06 PM »
muckmaw: Miko-
What about Air Defenses traveling in your tank convoy?
Did the T-72, 80, and 90 have any built in Anti Aircraft guns?


 You expect the soviet army tought those things to its grunts? :)
 I do know that each regiment of (3 tanks x 3 platoons + 1) x 3 companies + 1 = 31 tanks was assigned as mobile air cover a few (four?) of those armored vehicle thingies with four AA rockets - two on each side of the turret and (two?) Shilkas - which could allegedely shoot an artillery shell out of the air without operator intervention.

 We had .50 cal machineguns mounted on top but hitting anything with them was practically impossible.

Were there any t-80s or t-90s in Iraq during the first gulf war?

 Most likely not. Even in the mid-80s when I served, the only T-72s exported were those 4-crew - an extra grunt instead of the autoloading device and with (mostly?) older optical parallax rangefinders rather than the laser ones.
 Soviets had many - tens of thousands, of older T54 and T55 and advanced but unreliable T64 tanks in conservation and did not like to sell modern stuff. For backward countries against backward countries old stuff performed exellently, but to allow the modern stuff to be used by "savages" against a western admy - and get blown up despite quality - would just undeservedly discredit the quality of soviet-made military stuff.
Do you remember what Israeli's did with the obsolete disparate crap they had to the Syrians and Egyptians with fairly modern russian hardware?
 Russians were mad as hell for such an inept misuse.

 miko
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 12:11:59 PM by miko2d »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2003, 12:13:11 PM »
A four man T72 without autolader?  Do you have any more detail on this?

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2003, 12:16:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
Here's another article on air defense from "Military Parade" a delightful Russian publication.  I find it interesting that they called the Gulf war, where 75 Coalition planes were shot down, a failure of air defense, and Kosovo, where 1 plane was shot down, a success.  But I love that magazine.

-Sik


lol, I forgot to include the link

http://www.milparade.com/1999/34/042.htm

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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2003, 12:20:55 PM »
Oh, yeah - the tanks - all of them except T64 that tended to overheat - were quite reliable - or would have been with decent crews and service. They were certainly kept clean and painted excuisitely, then rubbed with disel till they shined! :)

 The engine could eat a lot of dust wearing the rings in the process - but still run, just consuming more fuel and using oil by the bucket - well, maybe and having trouble at the top gear which was exessive anyway, only useable on the road but being to fast too control the vehicle -EDIT: the tank was actually too light and generated too low pressure to be stable on hard pavement, it would spin off like on ice. We had a guy having his whole leg run over on soft sand - he basically got most of the muscle torn off but the bones were intact!

 When I served, there was no active defence yet (reactive armor) but we heard of it just introduced in "show off" divisions (Taman' division?).

 Supposeley western night sights were better, not requiring an illuminator - or requiring it less, since I used one without illuminator with some success (huge lamp disclosing one's location for miles) and often the daytime sight - I do not know how it is now.

 Everytime a tank would go to capital rebuild (engine resource 500 hours), it would come back with all new stuffing, including sights of the latest model.

 miko
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 12:41:38 PM by miko2d »

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2003, 12:22:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
[Most likely not. Even in the mid-80s when I served, the only T-72s exported were those 4-crew - an extra grunt instead of the autoloading device and with (mostly?) older optical parallax rangefinders rather than the laser ones.


Miko, I'm intrigued. From what I saw I thought there is no place for another crew member in a T-72... Even if you remove the autoloader :eek:

Never thought about it...

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2003, 12:33:46 PM »
GRUNHERZ: A four man T72 without autolader?  Do you have any more detail on this?

 That was what we - common soviet tanker grunts who have not seen a foreigner in their lifes - believed. Some stuff was blabbed by officers - some with Mid-East experience or hairsay of officers who knew of such officers. Certainly not in the magazines we read.

 In reality? I don't know and did not think to check the western sources since. May be a myth.

 Autoloaders wer tricky things to entrust the "blacks" - they reqired some maintenence tuning abd gentle handling - preferably no touching - but instead  were often used by crew as a ladder upon entering or exiting the tank. The frequent result was a 5-kilo bottom of the charge (the projectile was separate from the charge and the charge made like a shotgun shell, the carton part burning off in the process and steel bottom remaining to be ejected) - that bottom bouncing off the edge of the briefly-opened hatch and hitting someone's head ot falling into the mechanism. It was usually launched 3-5 feet up and about 20-30 feet out of the tank - which made it unhealthy for infantry to follow one - so the force was considerable to worry about, rubber helmets nonwithstanding...

 miko

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2003, 12:36:58 PM »
Boroda: Miko, I'm intrigued. From what I saw I thought there is no place for another crew member in a T-72... Even if you remove the autoloader :eek:
 Never thought about it...


 Apparently the gunner was seated lower, not having the ready ammo drum underneath, about 2 feet - and the commander was moved to the left side, to sit atop of the gunner - like in the older tanks. That left the right side of the battle compartment for the loader to move in and the ammo storage.

 Again, that is a hearsay.

 miko

Offline Rasker

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Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2003, 02:21:16 PM »
I love this headline from the English language Pravda site:  http://english.pravda.ru/

Foreign Investors Forget about Russia
Western experts believe that Russia is still retarded

What was that Mark Twain said about difference between great expression and bad expression being the difference between "lightning" and "lightning bug"?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 02:23:44 PM by Rasker »