Author Topic: Germany Owes the World an Apology!  (Read 4260 times)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2003, 10:22:00 PM »
The UN certainly can authorise war.  In fact they are the only body that legitimately can.  It's right in the charter.

The US is violation of the UN Charter because it is signatory of it.  In enter in to an agreement with all the member states that it would follow the charter along with them.  The charter states the you can only go to war for self defence, mutual self defence or with security council approval.

That's why the Gulf War was kosher.  Iraq violated the charter by attacking Kuwiat.  The security council passed a resolution giving member states approval for upholding the pervious resolutions through military power.

Here's the charter.

http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/contents.html

I was suprised at how reletively short I found it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2003, 10:25:32 PM by Thrawn »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2003, 10:25:10 PM »
I think it will be proven that we attacked the sadmans soverienty and preserved the soverienty of iraq.   I believe that countries like yours would have left saddam in power out of petty petulance.   your leader just about chocked when he had to say that 911 wasn't a good thing.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2003, 10:25:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

That's why the Gulf War was kosher.  Iraq violated the charter by attacking Kuwiat.  The security council passed a resolution giving member states approval for upholding the pervious resolutions through military power.


And the war never officially ended did it? There was a cease fire agreement that Iraq never complied with.

But now you have changed your argument from the US being in violation of 1441 to the US being in violation of the UN charter.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2003, 10:41:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
And the war never officially ended did it? There was a cease fire agreement that Iraq never complied with.


The Iraqi governments cease fire agreement was with the UN it is up to the security council, not US  to determine if Iraq was in violation of the cease fire agreement and if so what repercusions to impose on Iraq.

Quote
But now you have changed your argument from the US being in violation of 1441 to the US being in violation of the UN charter.


No I haven't.  I maintained that the US was in vioaltion of both in my first post in this thread.

"NUKE, the US is in violation of Resolution 1441 as well as the UN Charter."

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2003, 10:47:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
The Iraqi governments cease fire agreement was with the UN it is up to the security council, not US  to determine if Iraq was in violation of the cease fire agreement and if so what repercusions to impose on Iraq.

 

No I haven't.  I maintained that the US was in vioaltion of both in my first post in this thread.

"NUKE, the US is in violation of Resolution 1441 as well as the UN Charter."


Can you show me specifically where the US is breaking international law, in violation of 1441, or the UN charter?

Thanks.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2003, 10:51:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
The Iraqi governments cease fire agreement was with the UN it is up to the security council, not US  to determine if Iraq was in violation of the cease fire agreement and if so what repercusions to impose on Iraq.

 

No I haven't.  I maintained that the US was in vioaltion of both in my first post in this thread.

"NUKE, the US is in violation of Resolution 1441 as well as the UN Charter."


The UN didnt negotiate the cease fire in the first place...it was completely unauthorized by the UN..... we where in violation of the UN mandate for use of force against Iraq I guess.


Portions of 1441 only reaffirm portions of the UN charter ( as every UN resolution does) , so to say the US is in violation of 1441 is pointless if you only base your point/argument on the UN charter.

If the UN charter is static and states that " the UN will respect the sovereingty of nations", then any UN resolution that authorizes force would be against it's own charter by your logic.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2003, 10:53:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Can you show me specifically where the US is breaking international law, in violation of 1441, or the UN charter?

Thanks.


I'm sorry no, I've already done that.  I recommend you read my posts again, as it seems that NUKE could follow what as I was saying, so the problem doesn't seem to be with my explanations.

Besides, I've seen some of your other posts and you don't appear to debate in good faith.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2003, 10:56:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I'm sorry no, I've already done that.  I recommend you read my posts again, as it seems that NUKE could follow what as I was saying, so the problem doesn't seem to be with my explanations.

Besides, I've seen some of your other posts and you don't appear to debate in good faith.


Thrawn, explain how the UN can authorize the use of force against a sovereign nation without being in violation of the UN charter's statement of respect for a nations sovereignty.


Thrawn, I give up for tonight. I have not heard from anyone other than you that the US is in  violation of 1441.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2003, 10:59:21 PM by NUKE »

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2003, 11:03:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
I'm sorry no, I've already done that.  I recommend you read my posts again, as it seems that NUKE could follow what as I was saying, so the problem doesn't seem to be with my explanations.

Besides, I've seen some of your other posts and you don't appear to debate in good faith.


I'll take that as a big fat "well actually Martlet, it doesn't say it specifically".  Thank you, please drive thru.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2003, 11:05:51 PM »
i'm still eyeballing that 'debate in good faith' line.

and waiting.

with popcorn.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2003, 11:07:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
i'm still eyeballing that 'debate in good faith' line.

and waiting.

with popcorn.


I left that one alone.  Didn't really understand it, and didn't want to show my ignorance.

I guess I don't debate with God on my side?

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2003, 11:12:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The UN didnt negotiate the cease fire in the first place...it was completely unauthorized by the UN.....


Yes it was.

"3. Further demands that Iraq:

(a) Cease hostile or provocative actions by its forces against all Member States including missile attacks and flights of combat aircraft;
(b) Designate military commanders to meet with counterparts from the forces of Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait pursuant to resolution 678 (1990) to arrange for the military aspects of a cessation of hostilities at the earliest possible time; "

During the Gulf War the US was acting as an agent for the Security Council.  The US was instrumental in the war and the cease fire negotiatoins but it was acting under the auspices of the UN.




Quote
Portions of 1441 only reaffirm portions of the UN charter ( as every UN resolution does) , so to say the US is in violation of 1441 is pointless if you only base your point/argument on the UN charter.


Just because it is a redundancy doesn't make it any less valid.

Quote
If the UN charter is static and states that " the UN will respect the sovereingty of nations", then any UN resolution that authorizes force would be against it's own charter by your logic.



It says,

Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.

No one nation state is more or less sovereign than the other.  No nation state can declare a war of agression against another, for example.

Only the security council can do that.

I would probably be easier if you just read the Charter.  It's all done in very plain english.

Offline Sandman

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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2003, 11:25:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Try this:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/lawindex.htm


lol SM, before I viewed your link I had a little repect for you.

Not one mention on that page that I read was regarding Iraq's violations.....it's ALL America's fault.


Typical I guess.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2003, 11:40:21 PM »
I don't know why you would expect any different. The GPF monitors the UN and the UN has not sanctioned the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Certainly, the stories are biased towards a more global side of the discussion. No argument there.

Of course, if you want to listen to the talking heads on CNN or Fox and go right along, be my guest.

I prefer to look at the issue from more than a single perspective.

To be clear, the GPF articles pretty much represent a single perspective. This isn't the source of my opinion. It's just another reference.

YMMV.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 12:01:36 AM by Sandman »
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