Author Topic: Finns........ History Question  (Read 2645 times)

Offline crabofix

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2003, 03:47:45 PM »
Poor you:D

Offline Toad

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2003, 03:50:55 PM »
I wouldn't trade the youth I wasted for the one you folks are now wasting.

I've got a 23 year old that's living life large. I still think I had more fun than he's having. ;)

My generation was right there at the beginning/best part of "sex, drugs and rock and roll".

Saw Led Zeppelin on their first American tour, for instance..... with a really cute little hippy chick. :D

Nah, enjoy yours....... I had a great one, thanks!

You made me reflect a bit. I saw them Nov 05, 1969 - Memorial Hall, Kansas City, KS. That wasn't their FIRST tour of the states but it was the first year they toured. I do remember that the air was so thick with smoke that you could barely see the stage. Not talking pyrotechnics, either.......
« Last Edit: April 24, 2003, 03:57:21 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crabofix

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2003, 03:56:10 PM »
led zepplin, never saw them, cause Keith said they sucked, but Plant is a great guy.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2003, 04:05:17 PM by crabofix »

Offline SOB

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« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2003, 04:00:40 PM »
Weren't you quitting or something, Crabotard?


SOB
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2003, 04:03:12 PM »
Nah, cant let Blitz have all the fun by himself.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2003, 09:32:16 AM »
I didn't start reading until the mid-50's. :D I'm not as old as you think.

So you started reading 20 years before me :) I only want to say that until I was 15 I prefered to read something like Jules Wernes and didn't care about Katyn at all. So I hope that you didn't want to read political stuff at that age too, unless you had no childhood with endless fight against Evil Communists instead :D


Yes, we had books by Russian authors available in the 60's.


Yeah, standard kit from Tolstoy (damn I couldn't break through "War and the World" for five times! ;)), Dostoyevskiy and Solzhenitsyn :D

Did you ever open a historical book by any Soviet author?


Do you have the internet now? Good! You might want to research things like Katyn and the treaties between Poland and the USSR in 1939....... before Stalin stabbed the Poles in the back.


No I don't have internet :) Evil KGB officers standing behind me don't let me go to wrong sites :D

I just can't understand why you rely completely on nazi version of Katyn' and fail to use Google and find a Burdenko Comission report, IIRC signed by Allied representatives too. It is the last DOCUMENT availible, other then the obvious fakes you showed me.


Then we can move on to the "choice" the Soviet army gave to Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. The Hungarian revolution...... Prague Spring......  The Purges and the Gulag Archipelago......


Toad, I know you will not answer this particular paragraph, ignoring it, but I want to discuss US politics in Latin America since late XIX century. Let's begin with the story of relations between US and Columbia, OK? Did Columbia threaten US? How did it happen that we have a state of Panama now where the Channel was supposed to be built? Why didn't US representantives even visit the ceremony in Panama in 1999? What is your attitude towards Teddy Rousevelt?

I also want to know why it was nesseary to isolate all Japanese-Americans in 1941 in concentration camps?

Should I continue asking you questions? I have plenty of them.



I've got nothing against Russians or anyone else for that matter.


Yeah, really? Wasn't it you who said that Americans brought peace and "freedom" (damn "freedom" again!!!) to Vietnam and evil Soviets didn't let them by shooting down helpless American planes? Wasn't it you, among others, saying that Soviet soldiers occupied pacefull Germany only to rape everyone regardless of age and sex? Wasn't it you saying that brave Americans didn't do anythig like "barbarians from the East"? Wasn't it you who said bobmings of Yugoslavia were OK, regardless to the fact that your aerial bandits were bombing civilians to assist an organisation that was declared "terrosrist" by your own Congress?


However, the willing blindness to proven historical fact is another thing altogether.


Sure it is. Reading only Western propaganda is nothing better then repeating Soviet version, as I usually do, because I want YOU to see the other side, but your blind faith is too strong.


It took half this thread to get you to admit to the Finns that yes, that was an AGGRESSIVE war.


Really!? Poor me. Sorry that I don't know English as good as you do, you know, only nine years in Soviet school...


Stalin was an oppressive aggressive butcher of his own people and of his neighbors.


...who saved the world from nazism, saved endless millions from beind destroyed as "useless" and the rest turned into speechless slaves.

I understand that you simply can't imagine any other view on that great personality, but he saved us from nuclear devastation by "fighters for freedom and democracy" too.

You still can't understand one simple thing: the survival of many nations was at stake, and it took such a tragic and dark figure as Stalin to make it never happen.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2003, 09:36:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I wouldn't trade the youth I wasted for the one you folks are now wasting.

I've got a 23 year old that's living life large. I still think I had more fun than he's having. ;)

My generation was right there at the beginning/best part of "sex, drugs and rock and roll".

Saw Led Zeppelin on their first American tour, for instance..... with a really cute little hippy chick. :D

Nah, enjoy yours....... I had a great one, thanks!

You made me reflect a bit. I saw them Nov 05, 1969 - Memorial Hall, Kansas City, KS. That wasn't their FIRST tour of the states but it was the first year they toured. I do remember that the air was so thick with smoke that you could barely see the stage. Not talking pyrotechnics, either.......


Toad, you couldn't say anything more to make me envious!!!

:(

:p

:D

I was at Robert Plant's show in November... Almost 20000 people at the Olinpiyskiy palace, crowds outside trying to get a ticket...

And 2 weeks ago I was at the first Jethro Tull concert of their 2003 tour :p

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2003, 10:21:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda


I was at Robert Plant's show in November... Almost 20000 people at the Olinpiyskiy palace, crowds outside trying to get a ticket...



Wow, 400 saw him here :(

Offline Toad

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« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2003, 10:47:52 AM »
"Evil Communists"?

Communist has nothing to do with it. It's the forcing people to do things "my way" that is the problem. And the Soviet Empire was built on forcing people to do things "their way".

You don't think Solzhenitsyn wrote history? Oh, wait.. the Gulag did not exist... lies, lies, all capitalist lies, right? :D

Katyn? The Nazi version? How about the SOVIET GOVERNMENT version? YOUR GOVERNMENT, including Gorbachev AND Yeltsin both admitted to the deed. The NKVD did it. There's plenty of indepednent documentation too. You say you're waiting for proof and I have to laugh. It's been well documented for at least 30 years and YOUR GOVERNMENT ADMITS IT!

The only proof you'll ever accept is if someone invents a time machine and takes you back to Katyn so you can watch the NKVD shooting Polish prisoners in the back of the head.


And, yes, you DO ignore the "choice" the Soviet army gave to Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. The Hungarian revolution...... Prague Spring......  

The choice was accept Soviet rule or be invaded and slaughtered. But, in your mind, that's not "aggressive" right? That's like saying "hey, you want to go to the movies and get a beer later?" :D

But ask all the questions you want.. because once again here's the difference. If the US did it, I'll admit it.

For example, US troops killed innocent civilians at My Lai in Vietnam. That happened. Those responsible were brought up on charges.

Now compare that to your defense of Katyn, where NKVD killed innocent Polish civilians and prisoners for no other reason really than that they were highly educated and thus a threat to the state. You can't admit it and no one was ever brought up on charges for it. But it happened as surely as the sun rose this morning.

THAT'S the difference.

The US didn't bring peace and freedom to South Vietnam.. but we tried.

Soviet soldiers did rape nearly everything that walked in Berlin at the end of WW2.

Quote
During Berlin’s death throes earlier that year, according to the British historian Anthony Beevor, at least two million women were raped by Soviet forces. Some 200,000 of these women committed suicide afterward. The German capital was a city of starving orphans and widows.


Yeah, the Germans raped Soviet women too... both deserve the harshest condemnation. The problem is that again, you can't admit the Soviets ever did anything like this.

And you'll find if you reflect that I agreed with you that the NATO strikes on Bosnia were a violation of the NATO charter.


Your English is very good. Far to good to hide behind the fact that you were defending Soviet aggression at the beginning of this thread and have now admitted that it was AGGRESSION. But it took a while to get you to admit it and it took the Finnish input for that.


Stalin was an oppressive aggressive butcher of his own people and of his neighbors.


...who saved the world from nazism, saved endless millions from beind destroyed as "useless" and the rest turned into speechless slaves.

I think unbiased research will show that Stalin slaughtered at least as many innoncents as Hitler did if not a great number more. But then, you deny he engineered the Ukranian famine, don't you?

Stalin saved the world from Hitler? Horsepuckey.

Stalin saved Russia from nuclear devastation by democratic powers? More horsepuckey.

You have only to look at the results in Western vs Eastern Europe to see who was enslaved and who was "saved".

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline rshubert

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2003, 11:11:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Hehe I did go to the Jesuit school in the US :D

Do you have "Green Book" in the bookstores?

Could you buy Soviet books in English in the US in 1970s? In 1960s? 50s? 40s?


We had a quite active Communist party in the 30s, 40s, and up to the present.  It has never been declared illegal to be a communist in the US, but it has been repressed by society in general--the ideals of Communism do not work well in a Capitalist system, and Communist intenationalism was seen by people in general and in government as a threat.  The McCarthy hearings were not able to put anybody in jail for being a Communist, but they were able to create an atmosphere in which public pressure was put on the poor victims.  Our court system overturns all laws passed that restrict the right of an individual to express his political beliefs in a peaceful manner.  Our new "patriot act" will go away, just like other laws that have repressed the freedom of expression we enjoy in the USA.

That being said, you can now, and could then, buy copies of any book published in any country in the world in the US.  I read the Communist manifesto, Mao's little red book, and a lot of other pro-communist literature in the early 70s, and I got them from the library in my high school.  

Somebody, somewhere will sell anything at all here in the US.  Publishers are, however, subject to one self imposed method of censorship--they must make a profit to survive, and there are costs involved in translating, publishing, and marketing a book.

If it won't sell, it won't be published.  What's the title and author  of this "Green Book"?  I'll get you the Library of Congress catalog number.

One problem non-US residents have trouble grasping is that our society really IS free, at least in the arena of ideas.  It's not perfect, but I am convinced that Western Democracy is the best that has come along in the world to date.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2003, 11:20:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
Wow, 400 saw him here :(


You won't believe me, but the most popular old band here is Deep Purple. Every time they come here all the tickets are sold out two weeks before the concert, and THOUSANDS are standing outside hoping to get in somehow :) You have to pay 3-4 times the price to get a ticket, making it up to $100-120 for a standing parter ticket.

I think that thousands of people from all over European Russia came to Moscow and SPb to have a chance to see Robert Plant live...

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2003, 11:33:36 AM »
Wow.

But without Richie Blackmoore, it isīnt really DEEP PURPLE, Is it?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2003, 11:50:08 AM »
Toad, Gorbachev is not an authority here. He could declare that we crusified Jesus to please his Western friends.

BTW, where can I take a look at the documents he provided about Katyn'? :D

JFYI: Solzhenitsyn have admitted that all the numbers of "victims of Soviet regime" he gave in "GULag Archipelago" were a fiction of his imagination... And that the whole book was his greatest mistake ever :(

If you studied the Pribaltic history carefully (but I don't think so), you can find the real numbers of "cleansed" people. They are at least 20 times less then the number of Pribaltic Jews slaughtered by nazis. Only 18 (eighteen) Jews were left in Latvia in 1944 when Soviet army came back :mad:  


About US Army war criminals responsible "brought up on charges": ANY Soviet soldier caught on rape or robbery was immediately executed in front of his unit. Immediately. Executed. That's a fact that you simply don't want to admit. Soviet Army had the most severe policy about rapists and looters. How about that in the US army? Was buying a woman for a pack of cigarettes or a can of meat cosidered OK?...

About Beevor's book: it's not even funny. What grass did he smoke? Or he mistyped two or three extra zeros?...

Next time some looney commie "historian" will write that US army raped everyone regardless to sex and age in France, Italy and West Germany, and will provide some "real numbers" - will you believe him too?...


I think unbiased research will show that Stalin slaughtered at least as many innoncents as Hitler did if not a great number more. But then, you deny he engineered the Ukranian famine, don't you?


I don't deny the Ukrainan famine. My family lived there, so I have some first-hand accounts. JFYI, such disasters happened every 5-10 years until 1947. Evil Communists did their best to stop it.

As for Stalin's victims - just try to count. Numbers are declassified in early-90s. Try to search for them on the Internet. Traditional Western propaganda repeats legends invented by dr. Goebbels. If what Western "historians" wrote is true - there should be no people at all in USSR now.

The saddest thing about it is that current population of Russian Federation is about the same as USSR in 1940s. The number of prisoners is approximately the same. Think about it. Then try to find the number of prisoners in the US and try to compare.


Stalin saved the world from Hitler? Horsepuckey.

Stalin saved Russia from nuclear devastation by democratic powers? More horsepuckey.


Stalin DID save the world from Hitler. Surely he did. Not your brave warriors who opened second front in Europe when everything was over.

I really enjoy that "democratic powers" newspeak (if you know this word). Try to search for American plans of nuclear attack on USSR. They are well-known now. I don't remember all the names but one of them was called "Charioter". It was a direct and deadly threat to us. Fortunately we got some things to respond to "nuclear democracy". The cost was almost as huge as the War - but we survived facing the ruthless and deadly enemy.

Exactly as I said - you prefer to speak about all possible "sins" of USSR and don't want to talk about endless agressive wars that YOUR OWN country waged. International gangsterism of the US regime is something taken for granted. "We are different, we have the right to do it". WTG. Now you can rape almost any free country. USSR is gone. Noone can stop your "democracy" and "freedom". Congratulations.

Heh, we moved too far from original topic of baiting me. Thanks to our Finnish friends, they have much more common sence then you expected.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2003, 11:53:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
Wow.

But without Richie Blackmoore, it isīnt really DEEP PURPLE, Is it?


Steve Morse is a great guitar player, and he is much closer to "vintage" Blackmore then Richi himself playing that silly fast solos...

The greater loss was Jon Lord :( Moscow concert in 2002 was the first one after he declared he quits DP... Only Paicie is left from Mk.I now :(

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2003, 12:16:14 PM »
Interesting how a single commie is turning whole discussions into politics.