Author Topic: Finns........ History Question  (Read 2648 times)

Offline Boroda

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2003, 12:30:43 PM »
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Originally posted by Fishu
Interesting how a single commie is turning whole discussions into politics.


Toad is a commie!?

:eek:

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2003, 12:45:07 PM »
Yes, if you see his kind of a person from the mirror when looking at it :p

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2003, 02:03:35 PM »
For some reason Boroda can't muster the fact that any historian living in USSR is nothing but a happy story teller..

Everything was controlled by the party and nothing outside the official 'truth' came out. Ever.

Nobody simply dared to write anything even in secret, the KGB made sure of that. The ones that tried were sent to siberia.


Boroda if you still think those books you read in your youth were a reliable source of information - wake up man. For Gods sake.

Offline ra

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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2003, 02:10:19 PM »
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Did you ever open a historical book by any Soviet author?

Are there any history books written by Soviet authors you would recommend?   Are any still in publication?

Offline mora

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« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2003, 05:25:58 PM »
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Originally posted by rshubert
What's the title and author  of this "Green Book"?  I'll get you the Library of Congress catalog number.


Title: Green Book
Author: Colonel Muammar Gaddafi

Too bad it's not available here, it would be interesting read.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2003, 08:57:44 PM »
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The official Soviet admission of guilt came on April 13, 1990, exactly forty-seven years after the German announcement on finding the Katyn graves: Gorbachev gave General Jaruzelski, then visiting Moscow, copies of NKVD lists of the names of Polish officers, NCOs, border guards and others massacred in the spring of 1940.


I'd say you should check Polish sources if you want to read those lists. But Gorbachev gave them to Jaruzelski. It's fact.

Here's a book you might want to read:

Katyn’: Prestuplenie protiv chelovechestva (Katyn: A crime against humanity) Natalia S. Lebedeva, Russian Academy of Sciences, (Moscow: Progress–Kul’tura, 1994);

The author is now working on this:

Quote
The Katyn Massacre.
This volume investigates the massacre of some 22,000 Polish officers by Soviet NKVD execution squads in the spring of 1940 in the forest of Katyn and other locations. It is a project of great importance both because of the magnitude of the crime committed and its elaborate fifty-year cover-up by the Soviet authorities. In 1989 Gorbachev for the first time revealed the existence of documents that prove Soviet responsibility for the crime; and in 1990 he delivered to the Polish government a set of such documents. Since that time a commission of Polish and Russian researchers has collected tens of thousands of relevant documents. This vast undertaking will produce not only full documentation and proof of Soviet responsibility, which has already been acknowledged, but also a picture of the entire system—political, military, bureaucratic—that operated to produce this tragedy. Yale University Press intends to condense the findings of the Polish and Russian research teams into one volume of approximately 400 printed pages, which will include a representative selection of documents along with a narrative text written by an American scholar working with Russian and Polish colleagues.



Let's see... Gorbachev admitted it; Yeltsin admitted it and in January 2000, Russia's president-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned Polish President Aleksander Kwaśniewski to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave thought to contain the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the Second World War.

Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin admit it...... but Boroda is the only one that knows the truth.  :D

Pribalitic history? Study this one The Ghastly Year

It's the story of what the NKVD did in Latvia If you're squeamish, don't look at this page

As I said... you simply can't admit that your beloved Soviet NKVD and Army were barbarians.

Ask some of the Germans here if they think all Russian Army Rapists were shot in front of their units. The streets of Berlin would have been impassable due to dead Soviet soldiers if that were true.

Beevor? He used Soviet documentation.

Quote
Beevor, in describing sources for his latest work, mentions Natalya Gesse, a Soviet war correspondent and close friend of former scientist and later dissident Andrei Sakharov. Gesse described Soviet soldiers in Germany in 1945 as "an army of rapists."

Beevor says an examination of Soviet archives confirms Gesse's allegations. He describes where he got his source material.

"A certain amount from the archives of the Ministry of Defense, a large amount from the Central State Archive -- and this is very significant because one has reports from the NKVD chiefs of the army groups of the front advancing on Germany and into Germany reporting back to [NKVD chief Lavrentii] Beria, and these reports are then passed to Stalin stating that Germans interrogated by the NKVD say that virtually every woman left behind in East German territory is being raped by Red Army troops.

There is no indication, there is no comment on this. There is nothing to say that this is slander or a lie or anything like that. This is presented as fact."



So, you see no difference between a US soldier "buying" a woman for a can of meat and a Soviet soldier raping a woman at gunpoint?

:D That's what makes your posts so great!

Ukraine?

BLACK FAMINE IN UKRAINE 1932-33

Quote
WHY DID THE FAMINE TAKE PLACE?

OPPOSlTlON TO COLLECTIVIZATION is only half the story why Moscow created the famine in Ukraine. The Ukrainian opposition was not only ideological, that is against Communism, but also political. Russian nationalism reared its ugly head at this time. The Kremlin used the famine as a political weapon to destroy Ukrainian aspirations for independence. At the same time as the famine (1932-34) a wave of persecutions of thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers and leaders took place. Plots for liberating Ukraine were discovered not only in the smallest villages but even in the top ranks of the Ukrainian Communist Party itself. Purges took hundreds of Ukrainians. Suicide was the escape of many.



For those of you who think Boroda is telling it like it is, put "stalin ukraine famine genocide" into google.

You'll see "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,550. Search took 0.12 seconds ". Read for yourself and make up your own minds.

We were the ruthless and dangerous enemy?

Again, look at Western Europe and Eastern Europe. It's pretty obvious who destroyed the hope of the common man. Zoom in and compare East Germany with West Germany.

Soviets won WW2, eh? All by yourselves?  Yah, sure.  :D

I'll talk about any American "atrocities" you want to talk about; and if we did it, I'll admit it.

YOU, on the other hand, can't admit to any of the DOCUMENTED atrocities your nation is guilty of.

And if you ever want to honestly match lists..... I know which one will be the longest by far. By Faaaaaaaaaaaaar.


:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crabofix

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2003, 09:05:41 PM »
Now , Toad, you don´t have to rub it in.
He had enough.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2003, 09:21:08 PM »
All of us know there's lots of cr p on the internet. However, there's lots of reliable stuff as well AND good leads to actual source documents, electronic as well as ink and paper.

He knows how to use the internet. He obviously knows how to read.

The true history is out there.

You know Crabofix, if he didn't continue the totally absurd denials, I'd let it go.

But he insists on fairy tale history and much of that is pretty entertaining. So....... what can I say? I'm weak.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2003, 09:39:04 PM »
He knows the truth, he is just telling what he is been thought to tell.

Without his likes, there would nt be any diffrent views on stuff like the "winter-war", I dont know much about the stories they where telling the soiviets about this.

So, it is a diffrent view, even if its not true.

Still interesting to me.

During  2 times, my Granfather toke a lift with red cross market Ambulances. One time there was about 10 guys inside it, to be transfered from the frontline. 2 times they where attacked by I 16s and badly shoot up, (not a single wounded survived in the ambulance). The driver and my Grandfather escaped stoping and running away from it, after the initial attack.

Second time, they where empty.

My grandfather said it was the last time ever he took a lift with a ambulance. More dangerouse then anything.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2003, 02:51:42 AM »
Christ, I'm squemish now.  Thanks Toad.  Bleh.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2003, 03:47:24 AM »
Everybody I ever talked to (handfull of old germans, and an old russian couple that escaped to the west during the war), who was an adult in WWII soviet occupied Germany told me that soviet soldiers were ORDERED to rape every female from 10-80 years of age .

Of course I'm sure they are all liars .

Offline Wmaker

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2003, 07:32:21 AM »
You still haven't answered Boroda...

Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
Boroda it's just your words against a senior researcher, a doctor. You say "let's stick to the facts" and yet you don't provide any sources yourself to the discussion. Why do you expect anyone should believe you?? I've posted several quotes backing up my statements. Boroda, I challenge you to PROVE me wrong. I challenge you to find sourches that support your views. Obviously there isn't any since you do no effort to prove your points. Boroda, people don't believe this: "Of course it's true when I, Boroda, say it is. Everyone who thinks differently than me are wrong even if they have proof for their statements."

Some quotes:

"The deeds of the Finns during the Winter War gave others an example of how a people must fight for its independence."

Colonel General Dimitrij Volkogonov, February 1989

Why Soviet Colonel General says finns fought for their independence if what you say is true??

"The truth was on the side of the Finns when they heroically defended their freedom and their independence."

Historian Boris Sokolov, December 1989

See above.

"On November 30, 1939, it was Stalin's next move. 250,000 Russian troops under the cover of a coordinated air and artillery bombardment crossed into Finland to begin one of the least publicized and most costly campaigns in the annals of military history. It would be a "walk over;" General Meretskov estimated it would take only 10 to 12 days for his 26 well equipped 14,000 man divisions to reach Helsinki. Russian propaganda had been so convincing that it was felt that the Finns would be waving flags and welcoming the Red Army with open arms. Opposing him were nine poorly equipped 11,000-man Finnish divisions.

Meretskov never suspected that his army was about to plunge into a frozen hell, the second coldest winter since 1828, and oppose Mannerheim, probably one of the greatest defensive tacticians since Robert E. Lee. So confident were the Soviets of a quick victory march to Helsinki that they came with parade bands, but without winter uniforms, without supplies for a protracted campaign and without medical services. Even more sinister was the fact that Stalin had purged most of his regular army officers two years earlier and placed most of the responsibility for the army in the hands of political commissars."

Robert K. Maddock. jr

Source: http://www.kaiku.com/winterwar.html

Another site:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/FINNLIV.HTM
Wmaker
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Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2003, 08:20:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Yeah, well last document i watched, Russian made BTW, stated that Mannerheim line was nothing special. Couple of reinforced bunkers and few meters wide river in front of it. Intel knew the exact locations of these bunkers, but because the Russians sucked in C&C, such information never reached the warplanners.

You can "what if" all day long, but this thing boils down to the fact, that Russia sucked like Chasey Lane in their warcampaings. War is like playing scrabble, you have the letters you have and thats it, use them wisely. We did, you didnt, we rich you poor..:D


Watched the exact same document. It was made 2002. It told about how USSR tried to occupy Finland etc. Basically shared my view in every way. I just wanted to tell about the document to show that not everyone in Russia believes in same BS as Boroda does.

What gets me most is these lies about consentration camps in Karelia. I want everyone to note that Boroda still haven't posted any sources backing up his claims on them. "I read it in a book" isn't enough.

"USSR-truth" is only affecting to few die-hard commies nowdays... :)

Toad, check this thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50258
« Last Edit: April 26, 2003, 08:30:16 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Tsingis

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2003, 09:06:45 AM »
One must also bear in mind that USSR had also a political agenda for Finland. Troops were told they were on the way to liberate Finnish working-class to the bliss of communism. So this is one 'victory condition' that was not met.

The documentary to which Jarsci referred earlier (by Kirill Nabutov, Adams Apple/Russia, St.Petersburg.) revealed some interesting pointers as Russian veterans and historians were interviewed:

+ Finns treated POWs fairly and divided rations equally from the scarce resources of the army. No racism or discrimination was tolerated.

+ The USSR command had no idea of a huge Karelian isthmus bunker defence line being built even thou they had spys observing the area. One veteran said that "the intelligence officers should have been shot for this incompetence". Later this was named as the Mannerheim line by the Russians and the name was taken to use also in Finland.
When the first bunkers were captured the troops noticed what was in their view 'luxurious' living conditions inside the bunker and were wondering why they were liberating these people that were doing so well all by themselves. The fact that no people were ever found welcoming the Russian troops at captured sites was also puzzling the communists.

+ Lice, disease and cold resulting from poor supplies and equipment was as much or more disasterous for the Russian troops as the armed resistance of Finnish troops. The Finns killed lice effectively in obligatory louse-saunas(Russian POWs were delighted with this as much as German troops which found the sauna to be 'the heaven').

+ No Russian troops were actually killed in the Mainila shots. Operation was executed by the Communist party special service which also delivered the 'kill-count' as the result. People listed dead were missing people or party traitors etc.. The military officers were puzzled by the names they had to report as victims in their unit because some of them they had never even known. The shells landed safely to some nearby field. There was no Finnish artillery even in range to make this happen.

+ Russian troops were fighting desperate with the communist party officers' guns pointed at their backs. It was made clear that only by attacking they had a chance to survive. Troops were equipped with 100-200g of vodka for cold and wounds. Most just drank this right away. A common survivor returning was "'drunk as a cuckoo' and with a face of a man senteced to death without a glimpse of hope".

This documentary is worth watching, I recommend it.

The point is that the regular Ivan was not an aggressor, but a poor pitiful man, unwillingly forced to fight, not bravely, but desperately for a vague cause, but in the end just for his life.

Boroda, I will also raise a glass of vodka in silence for the memory of these horrible and sad losses of both sides. Let us never experience anything like this again.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2003, 09:49:09 AM by Tsingis »
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Offline Boroda

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Finns........ History Question
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2003, 01:21:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
"Evil Communists"?

Communist has nothing to do with it. It's the forcing people to do things "my way" that is the problem. And the Soviet Empire was built on forcing people to do things "their way".



Sorry forgot to answer this.

To me the greatest problem is making people THINK "your way". Looks like Western side has some great achevements in it...