Americans Sign Petition to Withdraw US from the UN

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Toad
I'd wager the vast majority of the current genocide world wide would be/is considered a "civil matter".

I'd further wager that the vast majority of the genocide in the past 30 odd years would be/is considered a "civil matter".

I'd wager that had the UN been in existence, the genocide at Dachau would have been considered a "civil matter".


So, it's obviously best to do nothing.

uhuh...Dachau isn't a civil matter, that was state sponsored.

So if I'm robbed by someone who fits a sterotype who best befits a criminal...I should call the UN before I call the police?

 Tronsky

[Toad]

Paging Dr. Hortlund... Dr. Hortlund... Mr. Tronski needs you to explain Chapter I, article 2, point 7 of the UN Charter.

To wit:

7. Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

The prisoners sent to Dachau were sent under the domestic jurisdiction of the state.

And you might want to do a bit of research on the ANC and it's "kill the boer" history/activity.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Toad
And you might want to do a bit of research on the ANC and it's "kill the boer" history/activity.

I did at the start and are yet to find anything to proves the SA government is in the buisness of killing white farmers as I posted earlier.
If they are they're keeping it quiet even from the SA human rights commision.

 Tronsky

[Toad]

Row over South Africa funeral

The phrase "Kill the Boer, kill the farmer" raised passions in the fight against apartheid, of which Peter Mokaba was highly influential as the ANC's youth leader.

He continued using the phrase right up to the 1994 election to deliberately provoke rage among white South Africans.

Yeah, my mistake. I can see where the ANC would use this phrase merely as an advertising slogan in an attempt to embrace all the various residents of SA into one big group hug.


BTW, no further comment on Dachau?

[crabofix]

So, Toad, you are: Signing the Petition to Withdraw US from the UN?

You can solve these problem on your own, I am sure SA would just invite you over to help em out.

[Toad]

Oooooooooooo YAH! Signed it a long time ago, long before this thread!

I'm an isolationist, baby! Can't wait till ALL US troops are back on US soil. Always have been.. check my posts from the beginning of this BBS.

And anyway, I'm no longer worried about people dying that can't defend themselves. You see, almost all of those are purely civil matters essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of the respective state.

So, you know, Hutus and Tutsis killing each other in the millions? Some regime or other wants to feed its citizens into a wood chipper feet first? I take the UN attitude now. It's OK! It's essentially within their domestic jurisdiction, just like Dachau was!

No problemo!

A weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Don't worry, be happy; NOTHING can be done! Civil matter!

But I still don't want the US in the UN. Reading the opinions of my world neighbors on this board has pretty much cured me of that.

And it looks like you guys don't want us either !

So, again... PERFECTION! Everybody is going to be happy! Rejoice!

[crabofix]

Originally posted by Toad


But I still don't want the US in the UN. Reading the opinions of my world neighbors on this board has pretty much cured me of that.

And it looks like you guys don't want us either !

So, again... PERFECTION! Everybody is going to be happy! Rejoice!

Wow, a WIN/WIN again, TOAD, looks like we are makin lot of progresses here, thanks Toad.

[Toad]

You're Welcome!

Win/win is always good!

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Toad
Row over South Africa funeral
BTW, no further comment on Dachau?

And say what?
Always with these pointless arguments inevitably comes the good old Munich/Auchwitz argument.  
It's a good one too, for even though this about South Africa, the supposed moral battle is lost when you bring up your ace in the sleeve...the holocaust..oooooo can't argue about that at all can we...

Dear oh dear...I have yet to see anything  that contends the official south african government policy is the genocide of white farmers. You have yet to provide this information, because the South African dailies don't seem too interested. The Australian media doesn't seem too interested , even though it's neighbour Zimbabwe makes the news often.
What, because members of the ANC shout slogans or may advocate the killing of white farmers, suddenly the governments buying up the Afrikkanners whole stock of Zyklon-B?

You must contend that there isn't a lunatic fringe with most political parties, especially in places of turmoil like South Africa.

 Tronsky

[beet1e]

Mr. Toad,

I empathise with your current isolationist stance. It's a phase the big empires go through at some stage. In the 18th century, Britain owned one third of the world, and had the most powerful Navy in the world. If I remember my history lessons correctly, there came a time when we severed a few ties here and there, and the period that followed became known as "Splendid Independence". Maybe that's where the US is at now.

But my question for you is - Do you agree with continued American support of Israel? And what would happen if that stopped? My brother tells me (and he's not usually wrong) that there are more Jews living in NY state than there are in Israel. How would they feel about that? Don't these American jews make big donations to the political parties which best represent their interests?

[blue1]

Toad, do you really want the USA to leave the UN and leave it to be controlled by the likes of China and Russia, France and Germany? The kind of UN that votes Cuba onto the human rights commission? The kind of UN  that does nothing because it hasn't got the power or resolve of America behind it. Unfortunately for better or worse the UN is kept going by the US presence. In my opinion if the US left the UN a split would soon develop as countries who realize their interests better lie with those of America attempt to ally themselves with the US outside the UN. The UN would become an axis of the misaligned. The sort of countries that like to criticise America but whose record of abuses stands no scrutiny?

Isolationism never worked for America and the last big attempt was ended spectacularly at Pearl Harbour.  America won't leave the UN anyway. No petition will make any difference to that. Like it or not America is the world's policeman and like any cop will tell you, it's dirty job and you won't be thanked for it very often. You won't even always do the right thing.  But the job has to be done.

In any case the truth is that the USA like any country should always does what's best for the USA. Isolation is not in anyone's interest least of all America.


Ignore the likes Hortlund. His assertions about the Kosovo issue ignore the realities on the ground or the history. To describe it as merely a guerilla war which the poor Serbians were about to supress is so far from the truth that it's laughable. If it was up to him Norway would be still part of Sweden and he would be wondering why those cranky Norwegians wanted self determination anyway.

[Toad]

Originally posted by -tronski-
uhuh...Dachau isn't a civil matter, that was state sponsored.

Tronsky

Say that indeed, the UN Charter would not have allowed intervention in the German genocide typified by Dachau.

As I said, feel free to have the UN.. please just move it to Geneva or some other nice stands-for-nothing place.

And the Boers? Well, go ahead and dismiss it. We'll recheck in a few years and see how it has progressed. It's just beginning to get ink and I suspect the killings aren't going to stop, so it'll get more ink.

Anyway, it's certainly no worse than feeding people into a shredder or any of the other stuff that's known and allowed to go on.

[Toad]

Beet1e,

I been relatively outspoken on this very BBS about the US relationship with Israel. I'm sure a quick search will turn up more than you want to read.

If it were me, I'd tell them to get back behind their UN designated borders or I'd cut off all aid. After all, taking territory by conquest is what we went after Saddam for in '91 right?

However, if one does that, one has to provide them reasonable assurances that they won't get shelled and rocketed from the Golan Heights, etc, etc, etc.

That means dealing with their neighbors who have sworn, on and off through the last 50 odd years, to eliminate Israel from the map.

So, at the same time you make Israel the offer they can't refuse, you have to make a similar offer to their neighbors and that's where it gets sticky. You have to be extremely ready to "crack heads".

Or, I guess you could tell the Israelis that they have to withdraw and if they later get attacked they have the OK to use their nukes....

But, all in all, there's way too much support for Israel from the US. They don't deserve all of that support, either.

The current "road map" is an example. The PLO said "we accept!" the Israelis said "hey wait a minute! There's a few dozen or hundred changes we want here!".

[beet1e]

Rgr that, Mr. Toad - fair enough.

[Toad]

Our staying OR leaving the UN won't change those things.

I mean, look.. we're there and Cuba is on human rights. Iraq was on disarmament, LOL!

Can't see where our "presence" makes much difference.

But those things are besides the point anyway. Even with the US there, we have "The kind of UN  that does nothing". Cripes, look at this current debacle in Iraq after 1441 passed unanimously!

Look at the evidence. The UN is already a gathering place for "the sort of countries that like to criticise America but whose record of abuses stands no scrutiny?"

Sorry, I can't see the purpose of routine deployment of hundreds of thousands of US troops around the world for extended periods.

Bring them home. Build a better transportation arm of the military so that if we HAVE to go help, we can do so quickly. There are obviously some countries that have similar values and that have supported us in the past. We need to be able to support them should they require it. Britain, obviously but there's others too. Then there's those that need to lie in their own bed for a century or so.

Otherwise, out of the UN and bring the troops home.

It's a powerless, pointless debating society in an insane asylum where the inmates have taken over. Libya heading Human Rights? Cuba on Human Rights? Iraq on disarmament? France passing details of meetings with the US on Iraq to Hussein?

Oh yeah... we need to be in that stewpot! Not!