Author Topic: Americans Sign Petition to Withdraw US from the UN  (Read 3740 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Americans Sign Petition to Withdraw US from the UN
« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2003, 05:09:57 AM »
A lot of people say we have no justification for the Iraq war.

But I'll say this the world is much better with milosevic in jail and not running amock in kosovo. The NATO war and US pressure set events in motion for that to happend - I dont think
I should care why people think it was done.

My thought is it was to prevent and stop the spread of yet another wonderful milosevic genocide - certanly i think it accoimplished that.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2003, 05:22:27 AM »
Why do you doubt it?

He is certainly capable of it.
He had a motive to "cleanse" the area for its high cultural signifiacnce to serbs - something that people outside yugo will prolly never fully understand.
He had a motive bacause that would strenghthen him in serbia - for the above reason.
He wasnt really punished in either bosnia and croatia.
He prolly thought it would go unnoticed as it was in a part of serbia.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2003, 05:52:29 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
A lot of people say we have no justification for the Iraq war.
[/b]
Yeah, but they are full of sh*t.
Quote

But I'll say this the world is much better with milosevic in jail and not running amock in kosovo. The NATO war and US pressure set events in motion for that to happend - I dont think
I should care why people think it was done.
[/b]
Fine.
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My thought is it was to prevent and stop the spread of yet another wonderful milosevic genocide - certanly i think it accoimplished that.

I think the situation in Kosovo isnt solved yet. I think the US made it *alot* worse by going in and removing the Serbs. Then they realized they cannot simply solve the underlying problem that would come with Kosovar/Albanian independence. So they jumped into the situation, made it worse, created another powderkeg that is just waiting to blow up, soon the US will want to leave and before doing that they will somehow try to turn Kosovo into Europes problem...

Well guess what, we never wanted the US to intervene, we never wanted the US to try to break out Kosovo from Serbia, we never wanted another safehaven for moslem fundementalism in the middle of europe, we never wanted that.

Really stupid...really really f*cking stupid.  

You come over to our back yard and f*ck it up, then you realize you f*cked things up and you want to bail, AND you expect us to clear out the mess you created. In between that, you accuse us of being cowards, idiots, weak, stupid and whathaveyou.

Offline Dowding

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Americans Sign Petition to Withdraw US from the UN
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2003, 06:26:48 AM »
Quote
It also provides most of the troops for its operations.


Oh my.

I can't believe the ignorance of some of the people on this board. Just make everything up why don't you.

The US has not committed peacekeeping troops to a UN managed operation EVER. I've NEVER seen US troops wearing a blue helmet. Korea was effectively a UN mandated US operation, the same foes for Desert Storm. US command of a coalition given a UN mandate.

Where have all these blue-helmeted US peace-keepers been? So the US contributed the most troops to Bosnia, Indonesia etc etc etc?

And for once, I agree with Hortlund on the question of the UN.

A US pullout of the UN would hurt both the US and the UN, and the global community.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 06:32:32 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2003, 06:27:54 AM »
Toad - what are your thoughts on Tronski's comments?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Americans Sign Petition to Withdraw US from the UN
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2003, 07:31:20 AM »
But Hortlund why dont you say why you doubt he was going to do another genocide ethnic cleansing thing?

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2003, 07:45:54 AM »
Its simple really, I dont think he would do one in his own back yard. I think he was motivated by ice-cold logic in Bosnia and Croatia.

The logic being that if you removed all the Croatians and Moslems from the parts of Bosnia and Croatia bordering Serbia, it would be easier to control those areas after the war, and later, annex those areas into Serbia.

Look at the Serbs in Croatia and the Serbs in Bosnia, look at the areas they wanted to control, look at what they did once they had achieved that control. You wont find any "lets conquer the entire nation and occupy it"-strategy, what you find is a "lets take these parts bordering Serbia and remove everything that isnt Serbian"-strategy.

In Kosovo, he doesnt need to do that, simply because Kosovo is an acknowledged part of Serbia. Then the Albanians start their own little war in Kosovo, aimed at independence naturally. For some unknown reason (i e Lewinsky and the need to shift focus from the presidents dick) the US decides to back this Albanian desire for a nation of their own.

They present a peace deal in that French meeting that is so outrageously insane it would make even Stalin blush. Then they say "accept this or we will attack". The Serbs say "uh..wtf are you on drugs? We sure as he** aint going to part with Kosovo, the cradle of our culture, the place we see as the birthplace of the Serbian nation"

The US says "do it now or face the consequences".

The Serbs say no. The US attacks. Its a f*cking outrage.

Its as if China would present the US with a "peace deal" giving New York and Michigan back to the Indians because the Chinese feel the Americans have been treating the Indians unfair. Then when the US refuses, the missiles come flying. You get the idea...Its like "who the he** are you to get involved in our domestic issues?"

Does that answer your question?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2003, 07:50:00 AM »
Had Russian not been boycotting the SC because of the Mainland China/Taiwan representation issue or if Mainland China had been sitting on the SC then the NK's would have most likely faced the S and a few of it's true allies only. I agree.

The US + allies would have put them back across the border anyway, the only difference would have been that the UN would have been shown to be clearly irrelevant 60 years ago.

"Puppet of the western countries".  Yeah, the UN/world should have stood by and said "Tsk, Tsk" when the North Korean tanks rolled into Seoul. That would have been the "right thing to do" instead of being a "puppet of the west".
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 08:35:55 AM by Toad »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2003, 07:57:46 AM »
No Hortlund. Its no difference whether Kosovo is ofically part of serbia, the problem were the people. You very eaily dismiss removal of people

The logic being that if you removed all the Croatians and Moslems from the parts of Bosnia and Croatia bordering Serbia, it would be easier to control those areas after the war, and later, annex those areas into Serbia.

He did not have control over kosovo, they ha autonomy. Thats why he wanted to get rid of them.  Its the same thing as in bosnia and croatia - he wanted to remove the non serbs. And the kosovar albanians were definitely not serbs.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2003, 08:04:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No Hortlund. Its no difference whether Kosovo is ofically part of serbia,

There is an ocean of difference between the two.
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The logic being that if you removed all the Croatians and Moslems from the parts of Bosnia and Croatia bordering Serbia, it would be easier to control those areas after the war, and later, annex those areas into Serbia.
[/b]
Isnt that what I said?
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He did not have control over kosovo, they ha autonomy. Thats why he wanted to get rid of them.  Its the same thing as in bosnia and croatia - he wanted to remove the non serbs. And the kosova albanians were definitely not serbs.


I disagree. And I question your sources for your statements.

He most certainly did not want to remove the Kosovars for several reasons. They had limited autonomy, yes, and that was the way it was supposed to be.

He had complete control over Kosovo. The Albanians were attempting some guerilla warfare against the Serbs, but the Serbs were in the process of defeating said guerillas when the US showed up with their "peace plan".

It is not the same thing as in Bosnia and Croatia, because this time we are talking about a part of Serbia.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2003, 08:04:23 AM »
South Africa and the white farmers?

Just that ~1000-1300 have been murdered, men, women and children over about the last 9-10 years while at the ANC political rallies, ANC Ministers lead the crowd in chants of "Kill the Boer! Kill the Farmer!"

Seems a bit strange for the ANC to be doing that eh? Where do the Boers have to turn to for aid then?
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2003, 08:06:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Had Russian not been boycotting the SC because of the Mainland China/Taiwan representation issue or if Mainland China had been sitting on the SC then the NK's would have most likely faced the UN and a few of it's true allies only. I agree.

I've re-read my post and I fail to see were I posted a link between USSR boycott and China ????

If China would have been in the security council you think they wouldn't have vetoed a UN intervention ?
I disagree accepting such an intervention would have been against Chine interrest.
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The US + allies would have put them back across the border anyway, the only difference would have been that the UN would have been shown to be clearly irrelevant 60 years ago.

Yep.

Quote
"Puppet of the western countries".  Yeah, the UN/world should have stood by and said "Tsk, Tsk" when the North Korean tanks rolled into Seoul. That would have been the "right thing to do" instead of being a "puppet of the west".

Ok I'll search another term to define an assembly voicing only one opinion.
But till I find the right term I'll use the "puppet" word ...



Btw my point (if you don't see it clearly) was : if the 50's UN was strutured like the current UN it will have ended like Iraq : an intervention without mandat.

Note that I take no position about the "bien fondé"(*) of the intervention.

(*) I hope you understand cause I didn't found a good looking translation for this word...

Offline BBBB

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« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2003, 08:06:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Face it chum... the UN is a do-nothing organization. When Serb tanks were rolling over the Kosovars the UN did....... nothing.
 


 Yeah they did they sent me, and around 2,500 troops over there as part of Task Force Falcon to stop it. I have been to Kosovo twice, once in 98 and once agin 00. I wouldnt say the UN helped much, it seems that when ever somthing needs to be fixed, its left up to America to fix it. I am still not sure if leaving the UN is a good idea. Maybe there needs to be changes made, but leaving it could be a mistake.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2003, 08:12:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
South Africa and the white farmers?


UN Charter, Chapter I, article 2, point 6.

I invite you to reply to the rest of my post too though...

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2003, 08:14:09 AM »
Hortlund practically Milosevics whole career was based on kosovo. You see he gained national prominance and serbian clout by going to kosovo in the late 1980s  and making a mess and making trouble for the albanians - thats how it all started and he always worked to reduce their autonomy.

You say there are severl reasons he wanted them to stay, what are they?

The reasons he wanted them gone are pretty clear.

They were non serbs running a serb "holy" area.
They were non serbs controling a big coal/mineral area.
The serbs in the area wanted them gone and began to make trouble as well.

What are your reasons he wanted them there?