Author Topic: A few questions for Americans  (Read 4146 times)

Offline straffo

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2003, 08:46:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
what race are the french?
lazs

american

Offline Tumor

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2003, 12:55:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Imp

I said you dont have the right to insult them (or their country) for their opinions.


Woah.. thats your OPINION bud.  I certainly do have the right to insult who and what I want.  Don't like it?  Who cares... but don't even try to dictate what rights people do and don't have.  We have documents that take care of that for us here in the good'ole (albeit hated) U.S. of A.

And you want people to think before they post?
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline OIO

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2003, 02:16:22 PM »
I thought they were mostly white.

Flag white ;) :D

Im not from the US but I live there now, here's my .2 cents:

"1. Why France is facing US sanction for not joining the coalition of the "Willing"?

If they take actions against France then they are coercing them to do what they want.

(I cut the rest, you must NOT put INDIVIDUAL rights with the rights of a NATION. Theres a vast difference between them, particularly in the RESPONSABILITY sector. Read below).

Firstoff, france is not facing sanctions. They will be facing consequences. This may come from reduced economic ties with france and/or little or no political support for anything french.

Second, the "actions" to be taken against france were not coercive as they were not applied NOR threatened before or during France's actions against US interests. You did not see Powell standing in front of the UN telling France to "shut up" before or during gulf war 2 did you? But we did see Chirac engaging in COERCIVE actions against his european neighbors before and during said conflict.

"2. What gives President Bush the right to make other countries do what he wants them to do by force? "

If you reffering to Iraq, please see UN resolutions before and after the first gulf war. UN gave itself the right to make Iraq comply with their resolutions by force if necessary. In this case, the Coalition forces... which Bush erroneously called "coalition of the willing" (I wouldve called them Coalition of the Responsible), acted on that resolution.  

"3. Why arent Germany, Russia and other countries who didnt join getting the same treatment."

Wait and see.


"You guys claim to be for freedom but you dont give the freedom to choose to your allies.

Thats sounds hypocritical from where I sit. "

Lets put this one into context shall we?

-Ally is a nation that actively or passively supports you and does not act or voice a PUBLIC opinion against your interests.

-Neutral is a nation that does not act against anyone actively or passively, and has the right to speak for or against either side.

-Enemy/Hostile is the nation that actively or passively acts against your interests and publicly speaks against your interests.

In international relations, there are no other categories.

In this sense, every nation on earth has the freedom of choosing their allies. They also have the freedom of choosing their enemies. France in this case, did NOT act like an ally and did NOT act like a neutral party.

France ACTIVELY acted and spoke against US interests.

They FREELY chose that their oil contracts and underhanded deals with Hussein were worth more than being an ALLY of the US or being a Neutral party to the conflict. By acting and speaking against the US they ALLIED themselves with Hussein (a passive ally).

Germany may soon be joining France in the category of hostile/enemy to the US if their dealings are proven..same for the Russians.

And putting France and Germany and Russia in the category of enemy/hostile does not mean the US will be putting sanctions or putting troops on their shores.. what it does mean is that these 3 nations will not be trusted in any future issue and they will quite probably fall to the bottom of the list of the "who to do bussiness with" list.

On a final note, think about this for  a while: A land run by a dictator is not a "Nation" . Its a hostage situation on a massive scale. With this perspective, there is no moral or legal ground for any nation to uphold international law against a dictator. These scum flourish because OF international law. International law which was written to be upheld by nations who'se citizens are FREE.

Offline straffo

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2003, 02:54:25 PM »
Using cap make not your speech more strutured nor interressant.

Offline OIO

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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2003, 03:58:15 PM »
Its supposed to simulate the emphasis you can put on your voice.

Offline TracerX

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« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2003, 04:56:23 PM »
Imp, I feel you are fair and open minded in your question, and truly seek understanding on this matter.  I do not want to rant or become nationalistic on this issue, but I will tell you how I understand this issue, which I have taken more than a casual interest in.  

I do not have issue with the French people who, may or may not support their leaders actions, but I believe that because of their anti-war tendencies, they have not spent enough time on this issue to come to a full understanding of what was at stake on the issue of Iraq.  

Americans, also largely uninformed, but in the wake of growing terrorist activity, devastating human rights abuses, and 12 years of interference in the disarmament of Iraq, feel that the elimination of the Iraqi regime was worth the cost of war.  Two things that we hold very close to our hearts are freedom, and safety, not only for us, but for people around the world.  Weapons inspections had been going on for 12 years.  In 12 years the only meaningful results from these inspections came as we sent huge amounts of men and materials to the Middle East.  We can't put that much force on Iraq's doorstep, and wait for a year to see if something good can happen.  It is like notching an arrow and holding the bow pointed at a target for the whole day.  Not even the USA can support that kind of deployment.  

Saddam Hussein had called too many bluffs, and we were tired of hearing reports of how the inspections were not working.  Most of the people who claim that the inspections were working, forget that this had been a 12 year process.  They mistakenly place their hopes of meaningful results from inspections on the last minute insignificant concessions that Iraq made leading up to the war.  As soon as the threat of war was removed, the inspections would be doomed to failure again.  The lack of action for so long in the UN severely hurt its credibility to enforce its resolutions.  Nothing short of war would extract any meaningful changes in Iraq.

The French seemed to appear at the last minute. After so much frustration to get anything done in Iraq, suddenly the French started opposing the only actions that looked like they might put an end to the 12 year process.  It wasn’t even a friendly objection either, no give and take, no understanding or negotiation whatsoever.  It seemed to fly in the face of the rational process the UN was pursuing, and severely damaged and set back the forceful UN resolution that was unanimously accepted.  You don’t take the teeth out of your guard dog because you are afraid it will bite someone.  Why have a guard dog then?  You can’t ignore the “serious consequences” clause in resolution 1441.  Although people might not like it, everyone knew that serious consequences is a nice way to say many bad things, up to and including war.  Don’t get weak knees now that the serious consequences part is in effect.  You have to follow through, and that is what we support.  

I am personally relieved that the war was as short as it was.  Vietnam is still a sore topic here, and something we do not want to repeat.  Please don’t think that the Americans are warmongers.  It is not something that we easily choose to do.  If it were, more people in the world would be speaking English right now.  As for the bad feelings towards France, I am hopeful that future issues will be less contentious between the French and Americans.  By the way, I still like to eat Croissants.

Offline straffo

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #126 on: April 29, 2003, 01:32:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
Its supposed to simulate the emphasis you can put on your voice.


Perhaps it your intent but it make your post difficult to read and very difficult to translate (at least for me).
I didn't go past your 2nd sentence because of that.

Not that it make your post stupid but simply unreadable for me.

Offline blitz

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #127 on: April 29, 2003, 12:29:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
And I'm shure this kind of statement is one of the reasons it's so easy to ignore many of the Euro  "world view" points posted here.

Not all, but a bunch.



Remarks from Colin Powell, US Secretary of State, On 26 January 2003, World Economic Forum:

"
There is nothing in American experience or in American political life or in our culture that suggests we want to use hard power. But what we have found over the decades is that unless you do have hard power -- and here I think you're referring to military power -- then sometimes you are faced with situations that you can't deal with.

I mean, it was not soft power that freed Europe. It was hard power. And what followed immediately after hard power? Did the United States ask for dominion over a single nation in Europe? No. Soft power came in the Marshall Plan. Soft power came with American GIs who put their weapons down once the war was over and helped all those nations rebuild. We did the same thing in Japan.

So our record of living our values and letting our values be an inspiration to others I think is clear. And I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of or apologize for with respect to what America has done for the world.

We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. "



If i recall it right, Toni Blair said shortly before the the coalition forces invaded Iraq "that a nuclear strike is possible"

But i can't remember that Bush told us after Tonis announcement that that wouldn't happen!



To the C. Powell speech

Nobody expect a member of this administration to admit that there was a lot of evil done by America after WW2.  In fact they know better.

Millions of people have died or were injured because of horrible action taken by the US administration.

10thousands of people were tortured and murdered with the help of american politics and personal.



Iran

Vietnam

Chile

Easttimor

Nicaragua

El Salvador

to name just a few.

This doesn't mean US in general is evil or America is "The bad guy of this World" Nobody says that here because it is a dump simplification!

America is a huge nation and did great things in it's history but to deny that it has made great and sometimes very bloody mistakes also in the past 50 years does not help anyone.


Regards Blitz





America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 12:38:07 PM by blitz »

Offline Ripsnort

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2003, 12:33:14 PM »
Blitz, cover your eyes! You may not like what you're about to read! ;)

Sunday, April 27, 2003
Associated Press


CAMP BUCCA, Iraq — Chanting "Saddam no, Bush yes," some 200 Iraqi prisoners of war were let go Sunday at the coalition's main internment camp in the desert near the southern port of Umm Qasr (search).

The men, many of them barefooted, shook hands with the American soldiers guarding the camp before boarding buses and trucks to be driven to nearby Basra, southern Iraq's largest city.

Their departure brought to 700 the number of POWs released since Friday, said Maj. Stacy Garrity of the U.S. Army's 800th Military Police Brigade, which runs the camp. Around 5,800 more prisoners, including some from Jordan and Syria, await screening and possible release, she said.

"Probably half of the camp will be gone in the next week and a half," said Garrity, who is from Athens, Pa.

Wearing a towel on his head as protection from the scorching heat and blowing sand, one smiling POW, Mahdi Saleh, told The Associated Press: "My mother will die when she sees me."

It may take a while. Once in Basra, the penniless Saleh will have to find transportation home to Mosul, a city some 500 miles away in northern Iraq.

Saleh, a junior Iraqi army officer who is the father of four, said he was taken prisoner at the Qadisiya Dam at the beginning of the war that toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein (search).

"I gave orders to my five men not to fight and we surrendered," he said, his eyes red from the sand. "Americans were coming for our own good. ... What has Saddam done for us? I'm 30 and I haven't enjoyed life -- no justice, no piece of land, no car."

Before boarding the buses and trucks, the freed POWs in ragged clothes or blue jumpsuits were each handed cigarettes from a yellow bucket and a package containing sugar, rice, tea and cooking oil provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross (search).

The men gave thumbs-up signs and peppered journalists with questions: "No more Saddam statues?" "No more military service?" "No more executions?"

Hussam Abbas, from Basra, said all he had known in his 25 years were prisons and military service. "I gave myself in so that I would have a chance to be evacuated and not to come back to Iraq," he said. "But now, I am happy. We got rid of Saddam who oppressed us."

Hanging out a bus window, Mussalam Hassan, 22, shouted happily: "We did not fire a single shot!" He said he was taken prisoner in Rumeila on March 21, the second day of the war.

As the men were being processed for release, a helicopter flew in with a 9-year-old Iraqi girl who had been treated for a heart problem on the USS Comfort, a U.S. Navy hospital ship. There was no immediate report of her condition, but she walked on her own.

Her family brought the girl to Camp Bucca after the war started asking for medical help. Her father was given a job at the post, and he and the rest of the family were allowed to live here.

The freed POWs said they were treated well by their captors. Many shook hands with coalition soldiers before being driven away.

"When we heard Americans entered Iraq, we knew it was the end of Saddam," said Falih Rahim, 35, from Baghdad. He said he couldn't wait to see his three children and go back to his job as a cart driver.

Junior officer Jawad Obaid, who said he surrendered March 21 in response to leaflets dropped by coalition planes, said he was praying he would find his family in Basra unharmed.

He was hopes for a new Iraq without poverty. "Our house in Basra still has a tin roof," he said, holding a blanket provided by the U.S. military.

Before Atheer Abdul-Karim, 25, joined his fellow Iraqis in singing a folk song on board a departing bus, he shouted out: "They paid us 17,000 (Iraqi dinars a month) to fight Americans. I would have killed Saddam for one dollar."

Offline Gloves

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Re: A few questions for Americans
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2003, 12:52:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Imp
1. Why France is facing US sanction for not joining the coalition of the "Willing"?


Imp,

What sanctions are you referring to?

Offline blitz

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2003, 01:23:56 PM »
QUOTE]Originally posted by Ripsnort
Blitz, cover your eyes! You may not like what you're about to read! ;)

Sunday, April 27, 2003
Associated Press


CAMP BUCCA, Iraq — Chanting "Saddam no, Bush yes," some 200 Iraqi prisoners of war were let go Sunday at the coalition's main internment camp in the desert near the southern port of Umm Qasr (search).

The men, many of them barefooted, shook hands with the American soldiers guarding the camp before boarding buses and trucks to be driven to nearby Basra, southern Iraq's largest city.

Their departure brought to 700 the number of POWs released since Friday, said Maj. Stacy Garrity of the U.S. Army's 800th Military Police Brigade, which runs the camp. Around 5,800 more prisoners, including some from Jordan and Syria, await screening and possible release, she said.

"Probably half of the camp will be gone in the next week and a half," said Garrity, who is from Athens, Pa.

Wearing a towel on his head as protection from the scorching heat and blowing sand, one smiling POW, Mahdi Saleh, told The Associated Press: "My mother will die when she sees me."

It may take a while. Once in Basra, the penniless Saleh will have to find transportation home to Mosul, a city some 500 miles away in northern Iraq.

Saleh, a junior Iraqi army officer who is the father of four, said he was taken prisoner at the Qadisiya Dam at the beginning of the war that toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein (search).

"I gave orders to my five men not to fight and we surrendered," he said, his eyes red from the sand. "Americans were coming for our own good. ... What has Saddam done for us? I'm 30 and I haven't enjoyed life -- no justice, no piece of land, no car."

Before boarding the buses and trucks, the freed POWs in ragged clothes or blue jumpsuits were each handed cigarettes from a yellow bucket and a package containing sugar, rice, tea and cooking oil provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross (search).

The men gave thumbs-up signs and peppered journalists with questions: "No more Saddam statues?" "No more military service?" "No more executions?"

Hussam Abbas, from Basra, said all he had known in his 25 years were prisons and military service. "I gave myself in so that I would have a chance to be evacuated and not to come back to Iraq," he said. "But now, I am happy. We got rid of Saddam who oppressed us."

Hanging out a bus window, Mussalam Hassan, 22, shouted happily: "We did not fire a single shot!" He said he was taken prisoner in Rumeila on March 21, the second day of the war.

As the men were being processed for release, a helicopter flew in with a 9-year-old Iraqi girl who had been treated for a heart problem on the USS Comfort, a U.S. Navy hospital ship. There was no immediate report of her condition, but she walked on her own.

Her family brought the girl to Camp Bucca after the war started asking for medical help. Her father was given a job at the post, and he and the rest of the family were allowed to live here.

The freed POWs said they were treated well by their captors. Many shook hands with coalition soldiers before being driven away.

"When we heard Americans entered Iraq, we knew it was the end of Saddam," said Falih Rahim, 35, from Baghdad. He said he couldn't wait to see his three children and go back to his job as a cart driver.

Junior officer Jawad Obaid, who said he surrendered March 21 in response to leaflets dropped by coalition planes, said he was praying he would find his family in Basra unharmed.

He was hopes for a new Iraq without poverty. "Our house in Basra still has a tin roof," he said, holding a blanket provided by the U.S. military.

Before Atheer Abdul-Karim, 25, joined his fellow Iraqis in singing a folk song on board a departing bus, he shouted out: "They paid us 17,000 (Iraqi dinars a month) to fight Americans. I would have killed Saddam for one dollar."
[/QUOTE]


Double post rips :)

Had read it before but no time to answer.


What does this story tells us?

Could this be true or is it just another propaganda lie like the one from the "Tonking event" or the one were the girl (paid by american government) wittnessed she saw Iraq soldiers in Kuwait killing babies by stealing their "Brutkästen".
Later it turns out that all together was a big lie to convince the members of the SC to go to war with iraq better known as "desert storm"


I say this story can be very well true.

Why not? Everybody knew for 30 years that Saddam Hussein was a murderer, user of WMDs on iranian people and his own kurds, an evil dictator who suppressed everybody who did not joined him.

Who knew best was the US administration, tho.
Nevertheless he was supported bigtime by the US administration even after his massive WMD use.

Why? Because they had only minor if any problems with his behaviour as long as he fits into their plans.

They didn't care in the slightest way of his massive violation of human rights as long as he was no enemy of the States.

And he became an enemy just because of 1 false move that has nothing to do with violation of human rights--- OIL

He invaded Kuwait and US government couldn't stand seeing one guy controlling all the oil of Iraq and Kuwaits oil 2.


This is the story.

And all that humanity "Bla,Bla,Bla" from american officials is just for the audience to feel better.

I hope Iraque people benefit from this evil Agression War at least in long terms. Nobody knows by now.

All the kids and innocents that have died because of this war will not cheer anybody, that's for sure.


Regards Blitz


The worst possible scenario: One country alone rules the world
Balance is always needed in life.



America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 01:57:22 PM by blitz »

Offline BGBMAW

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2003, 01:56:37 PM »
hey Blits.....FU



I think you are a moron..You think u are so rigth and smart..


All the US gov wants is Oil..and we dont give a crap about humans..YOU ARE A MORON..

I understand everything is not black and white..why dont you??

Ya i guess the BILLIONS THAT we spend,on Aid to the world is just a "front"....God ..i hope u get a big prettythang splinter today


Virtual Stabbing commence...

Offline blitz

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2003, 02:06:31 PM »
You're totally wrong about my opinions Mawi !

A country that had guys like, Hendrix, Morrison & Zappa can't be bad :D


Regards Blitz


btw The worst possible scenario: One country alone rules the world



America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous

Offline Martlet

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2003, 03:48:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
hey Blits.....FU



I think you are a moron..You think u are so rigth and smart..


All the US gov wants is Oil..and we dont give a crap about humans..YOU ARE A MORON..

I understand everything is not black and white..why dont you??

Ya i guess the BILLIONS THAT we spend,on Aid to the world is just a "front"....God ..i hope u get a big prettythang splinter today


Virtual Stabbing commence...


I agree.

And paper cuts, too.

Offline blitz

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A few questions for Americans
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2003, 03:55:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I agree.

And paper cuts, too.



Your avatar is great, can you send me a poster of it for my living room, please? :D


Regards Blitz





btw The worst possible scenario: One country alone rules the world



America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous