On the duties of the Luftwaffe

[Yeager]

Ooops  

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Kieren]

"Why can't we be frie-ends,
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends,
Why can't we be FRIENDS?"

WAR circa 1970's

(ironic, eh?)

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Cobra]

What does all this have to do with flying in Aces High?

Cobra

[Toad]

Excellent point, Cobra.

I thought the O-Club was specifically designed for this type of pointless argument and speculation.

[Nashwan]

 

Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
I wonder how many LW officers were aware of the holocaust...

I am sure they had heard of Krystal Nacht, when more than 800 Jews were murdered, 1000 synagogues razed, and all at the urgings of the German government. I am sure they knew the leadership of their country reffered to Jews as rats and vermin, and called them a plague that must be removed from Europe.

WW2 did not begin in 1942. The Luftwaffe was not defending German cities when it invaded Poland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Holland etc. It was gleefully carrying out a war of conquest against smaller weaker countries.

Harris was not a war criminal. He attacked the enemy from the air, in the only way that was open to Britain for much of the war. Bobming the enemy's cities was a tactic dating back to the German Zepplin raids on London in WW1. If the worst thing the Germans had done in WW2 was bombing Rotterdam they would not feel such shame at their country's past. The German war criminals selectively murdered people who were no help to their enemy, who could indeed have helped Germany. Harris orchestrated attacks on the enemy's cities, that supplied the weapons and equipment the Nazi's needed to continue the war.
Germany lost 3-600,000 people from Allied air raids, less than 1% of the total casualties of WW2. If the Allied bombing offensive shortened the war by 2 weeks it helped save lives, not cost them.
"The end justifies the means" is often used by idealists to condemn anything bad dopne in a good cause. I saw a quote which gives the position the Allies faced in WW2 perfectly:
"The most immoral thing we could do was allow oursleves to lose"
Ridding the world of Nazi Germany was the number one priority, and an extra 1% of the total casualties the war caused was seen as a price well worth paying.

[Hangtime]

Ok; now back to ailerons and elevators.

Hey; anybody bomb A1 recently?? (all part of the war effort)

 

Hang

[Azrael]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
And, seems to me; that if the LW was so full of righteous indignat officers offended by the slaughter of innocents by their government; they coulda hopped in their planes and flown enmasse to switzerland. War woulda been over the next week. They made their choice.. and now children of a diffrent generation get indignant when the horror of what their fathers HELPED CREATE AND PRESERVE is hoisted in their faces. Get over it. They fought and died for their 'fatherland'; and lost, and the next generation expects them to be remebered as shining knights or righteousness? Nope.. sorry. No cigar. No sympathy. None.

I really wonder who you're talking to?
Perhaps you mix up virtual pilots that like to fly in LW squads in a game called Aces High with germans?

Az
381st BG (H)
 

[milnko]

 

Originally posted by maik:
This isthe kind of thread that could make me think of leavin AH    .

Maik

German and still no Nazi, never was and never will be!
But probably ONLY born americans belong to the good guys.
Congrats to ur BRIGHT history.

 Although I can't specifically remember who said it, one Allied pilot in an interview concerning his combat experiences over Europe during WW2, said he felt little remorse for bombing cities, as it was his belief  EVERYONE was trying to kill him, "even if it was just the housewife packing a lunch for her husband to take to work at a factory" she was contributing to the war effort, and ultimately helping those who were pulling the triggers of the guns pointed at him.

 Let us not forget one important item:
History books are written by the VICTOROUS

* Question*: Were crimes against humanity committed by ALL Participants?  Most definitely!

 I was in the US Navy during the 80's (1981 to 1989) and having traveled through out Europe, my impression was that most Europeans liked Americans, with the exception of the French    I think they hate EVERYONE  J  <G,D,R>

 My step-mother was born and raised in Germany, she was quite young during WW2, however she tells of how her father came home from the Army wounded and disabled, to take came of the farm. Where upon the government would tour by and take most of the produce, then when they tried to hide some of the produce, her father ran a great risk of ending up in a prison somewhere. Her father did not belong to the NAZI party, but her father felt it was his duty to protect his country.
 From whom you ask? Why from the people his government said was the enemy. (Does this sound familiar to anyone?)

 Just as with a great many people today, there was little concern as to who is/was running the country, most are concerned with day to day living and not politics.

 I traveled to Germany with my stepfamily and my father, I talked to my stepmother's dad, I have seen the German people and German countryside…and do you know what? They are no different than anyone else. No fangs, No horns, not even hooked claw-like hands.

Although at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and later in Vietnam a precedent was set that just obeying orders is not an excuse, many today as was the case then, would rather carry out an order than run the risk of being shot or imprisoned for disobeying.

Let me sum this up with the statement that these are my OPINIONS, also I believe World War Two was a great tragedy, but until mankind matures enough to leave violence behind, it is my belief we can look forward to many more armed conflicts.
 In fact I'd venture to state that in my opinion the predator man defines his existence with conflict.
 As an example I present this topic, which is but a hairline breadth away from getting ugly.
 

------------------
CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[Toad]

Please, let's take this to the O-Club. Nothing wrong with the exchange of ideas...in the right place.

I've even planted a seed...see: "Be Ye Men Of Valour" in the O-Club.

Enjoy!

[NineZ]

Good post Milenko.

And Toad that O-Club thing really ticks me off.  Now we have to exclude Non Coms from the conversation!  

You imperialist dog!  

[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]

[milnko]

Thanks NineZ.

Yeah, maybe this is the wrong place for this topic, upon further consideration, I submit for you viewing pleasure and intellectual enjoyment this quote as taken from  http://www.411.playnet.com/andreas.htm

Lady_"J":  "Are there any parting thoughts you would like to leave our readers with?"

Lieutenant Lange:  "Yeah I have one point for the readers: If you play a game about WWII then leave the politics and emotions out of it. Just see it as a game with historical data. Don't live the characters out there."[/b]

Good Advise me thinks!!!

 



------------------
CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks
BANDITS ON MY SIX!!!!

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[Vulcan]

Unless you lived, flew, whatever in WWII I don't think its right to make such judgements either way.

Talk to someone whos been in a war and this self-righteous judgement crap suddenly dwindles into insignificance.

There will always be war. There will always be amazinhunks like Hitler. There will always be people who do not realise the ugly truth of the path they are following until its too late. And there will always be guilt afterwards on either side.

Hindsight is a great thing to throw around on a BBS.

Sit down, talk to someone from either side about how it affected them. You'll soon realize that the lines between good guys and bad guys get very blurred very fast.

I'm here for the game. Leave your politics at the door please. If you can't, then please don't play.

-vlkn- out

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by NineZ:
And Toad that O-Club thing really ticks me off.  Now we have to exclude Non Coms from the conversation!  

You imperialist dog!  

[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 08-01-2000).]

9Z   I suggest you take that O-Club stuff up with Supreme Overlord, Commander of Joint BBS Forces, Marshal of the Empire Pyro.  He's in the Private Dining Room!

 

[Maverick]

I wasn't going to chime in even though I have seen comments here that I find are personally insulting.

I think it is fruitless to look at this situation and not learn something here. This conflict is more than 50 years behind us. People, that war is farging OVER!

If you want to comment on something get back into the game.

The only truism that I can offer is this. War is the ultimate obscenity. There are no real winners. ALL lose whether they started it, joined later, won or lost. The true measure of war are the fields of croses, stars or markers. The loss is in what might have been had those who lost their lives been able to live their lives to fruition.

War is not glorious. There are glorious acts contained IN wartime but those who are participating are all wishing the war was not happening. No one who has been in the position of shedding blood in combat ever wants to go back to it. No family who lost a loved one wants to lose another.

If you cannot get along together then get along apart. Leave each other alone. Just treat others as you would want to be treated.

Lets not let this ever happen again. The war will have truly been a total loss if we as a species cannot learn to make things work out in a better way.

I am not in the position to judge those in command of the forces those days. That job is slated for a desk much higher than mine and it is already occupied.  What I am in position to do is, in my own small way, to try and see it does not happen again. So are all of you. Stop hating, learn to get along. Drop traditional grudges.

Nuff said and folding up my soapbox.

Mav

[Wardog]

Well,i was online when this discussion took place. It started with Hristo talkin about (The best pilots flew LW) and in 5 minutes StSanta came in with the bombing of Dresden.

Totally off what was being dicussed. A few of us pointed out that LW & Allied pilots had same skills,just that Allied had a 25 sortie cut off. And the LW had no choice but to fight right through to the end.

Then StSanta brought up Dresden,which had no bearing at all on the topic started by Hristo.

Once it got political and to hot for the online community,i bowed out & contined on with my nightly endeavor. Killin Rooks & Knights  

The political situation is history, if ya want to know a bit about it pick up a book & read it. Dont bring it into the arena!

Dog out........


[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 08-01-2000).]