On the duties of the Luftwaffe

[Karnak]

I am not a Nazi.

I have been flying Bf109G-10s because it gives me the two things I need most to have a shot at surviving: Speed and Climb.

I would prefer to fly an RAf kite, but there is not currently one that gives me a reasonable chance to survive.

I don't believe that the historical actions of the Allies and Axis can really be compared with each other.  I will let history speak for itself.  Note: According to a German researcher, the USAAF fighters straffing civilians never happened.

In all the time I've been playing with WWII flight sims and participating in WWII flight sim communities, I have only once encountered an fellow player who flew German aircraft because he believed that the Nazis (note that I mean Nazis, not Germans) were the good guys and their beliefs were correct.  And you know what?  I didn't meet him here.  I didn't meet him on CombatSim's EAW forum.  I met him at work, at my last job.  He was a co-worker.

I have seen no evidence that anybody here is a Nazi.

  to the Mcarthyist WWII Sim Nazi hunters.

Sisu
-Karnak

[humble]

Personally I think most of you are missing an important point here...all fighter pilots were linked by their common experience. Read any of the various memiors and the feelings of mutual respect/compassion are there. Based on what I've read 95% of the german pilots were fighting for there country, not there ideology. Being a NAZI is a state of mind, not a geographic location.

Personally I think the german pilots of 44-45 did an outstanding job against formidable odds, that being said Hitler and all who supported him are the darkest stain on our planet. I'd only ask we not confuse the two, not every german was/is a nazi...and not all nazi's are/were german.

[Hangtime]

Hmmm.. so as not to be misunderstood; allow me to say that I have spent time in what was then the FRG; and was moved to tears by a small ceremony held in a village near my base annually.

Those folks; as noted above by Milenko; were much like any others I've met the world over; the diffrence being they did what they could to lessen the horror; WHILE it was happening; at great risk to themselves.

War is politics by violence. Usually, it is avoidable. It is always deplorable. But when a great evil arises; all people must decide what they stand for. The lessons learned by the German PEOPLE were many in WWII; and not the least of them were political and social. They are now; again, a great Nation. And they despise Nazism utterly.

60 years ago is not today.. and most whom I've spoken to that served the Reich then expressed a universal sentiment. Regret. Deep, painful regret. No sense of indignation for 'abuse' at the hands of the allies.. no lasting hatred for the western powers. Only regret. They all have my respect.. their choices as individuals ranged from poor to none at all then. Today they have many more choices.. as do those who wish to fan high the flames of hatred here on this BBS; invariably those from a later generation.

I vote for freedom. Freedom of expression; freedom of ideas; and freedom to pursue your dreams... and if you find youself dreaming of Nazi Glory and a 1000 year slave state then you deserve the ruthless bombing of your soul in hell for all eternity.

My aplogies to those folks from Europe who may have misconstrued my earlier posts.. they were just as nasty as the ones that inspired them.. I can only offer that ignorance is not bliss; it is hurtful and degrading to those that suffered on both sides.

I bear no grudge against any nation; and I am not confusing the free and democratic Germany of today with the Nazi Regime from 60 years ago. No; I do not consider all who fly LW A/C in this sim to be evil cretins; and NO I do NOT pre-judge anybody's convictions based on the toys they play with.

Only when someone spouts ideology as motive in this sim do I become less than kind; and when the boasting or finger pointing becomes ramapant I'm moved to react. I too have family that did not come home; and lest their memory become sullied, I felt moved to take a stand.

Enuff.. that war is done.. and the majority here care not a whit for the ideologies of 60 years ago. This is a game. Sorry I forgot that... lets go fly airplanes.

Hang

[Pongo]

In my opinion...
Black and white really. To me anyway.
One group of servicemen valiantly and efficienlty tried to spread slavery, hate, torture, and pain to the world.
One group reluctantly but valiantly and dogedly fought a war they did not want, in a way they did not like, against an enemy they did not chose.
Both sides were fighting for us in a way. But only one side for our best interests.

It is sad that shuch magnificent men as Galland and co could not find the morals to see that empowering evil is itself evil. Or if they had the morals then it is sad that they lacked the courage to end it.
I can honor their flying but denying their part in causing the death and waste and suffering that was the result of the Germans cultural moral failure is revisionism.

My opinions are of course biased by my experiaces and studies. But I prefer to state them untarnished by 90s speak. In the case of WW2 I feel that blame and shame can be pretty accuratly applied. I will hold that opinion till someone presents evidence to the contrary. But I really doubt that the matter can be changed in any signifigant fact. It can just be muddied and confused if we let it be.

Pongo

[Animal]

Hangtime:
I love democracy, and I love America as much as you. But there is something you must understand; If you were a LW pilot, with your wife and children living on Dresden, I doubt you will take your plane and fly to Sweden.
No matter if that B-17 formation is piloted by the Good Guys, and you are flying for the Bad Guys, I'm pretty sure you would grab your 109 and try to stop them from killing your family.

[StSanta]

Wardog:

just to set it straight; I brought up Dresden after you or yer pal stated that the LW was deliberately postponing the war for no good reason other than allowing American flyers and other civilians to die.

The ugly Americans I *DO* hate are those who claim that their country is the birthplace of democracy, the only free place in the world and that they are the knights who protect democracy everywhere. That's just ignorant, and quite insulting to everyone else.

Guess I'll let it rest. I was really surprised that anyone could hold the opinion of LW that they were butcher birds aiding the Holocaust directly without so much as flinching, but now I know more. I'll take it to O club if I wish to go deeper.

Sorry everyone for not posting this there in the first place.




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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

I would prefer to fly an RAf kite, but there is not currently one that gives me a reasonable chance to survive.

 Sisu
-Karnak

Karnak hit the nail on the head....We need the SPIT XIV here!!...Thats the unseemingly undercurrent that is responsible for all of this...Bring the SPIT XIV to AH.

Thank You, and now back to our regularly scheduled wringing of hands.

Cobra

[Jigster]

From Chuck Yeager, about the strafing missions in Germany.

"It's a very different war a 50 feet of the ground; you see everything, especially in winter, when cars and trucks and people are easily spotted against a blanket of snow. Coming in so low my eyes once met with the driver of a German staff car. I was coming straight at him; one quick burst and that car disintegrated, four bodies tossed out on the icy road like rag dolls. Another time, I spotted a five- or six-truck German troop convoy; by the time I swooped down on them, the troops had jumped out and were hunkered down in a roadside ditch. I opened up with my six fifty-caliber machine guns and watched those sparkling  butterflies dance right up the line in that ditch. Before leaving, I hit their trucks. It was the first time I had ever strafe troops, and I was suprised at how quick and easy it was to take out an entire battalion. Enemy troops were fair game: a driver in a jeep--zap him. A soldier running through the snow--zap him. But we weren't always scrupulous about our targets.

     Atrocities were commited by both sides. That fall our fighter group recieved orders from the Eigth Airforce  to stage a maximum effort. Our seventy-five Mustangs were assigned an area of fifty miles by fifty miles and ordered to strafe anything that moved. The object was to demoralize the German population. Nobody asked our opinion about whether we were actually demoralzing the survivors or maybe enraging them to stage their own maximum effort in behalf of the Nazi war effort. We weren't asked how we felt zapping people. It was miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time and did it. If it occured to anyone to refuse to participate (nobody refused, I recall) that person would of probably been court-martialed. I remember sitting next to Bochkay at the briefing and whispering to him : 'if we're gonna do things like this, we sure as hell better make sure we're on the winning side.' That's still my view.

     By definition, war is immoral; there is no such thing as a clean war. Once armies engaged, war is total. We were ordered to commit an atrocity, pure and simple, but the brass who approved this action probably  felt justified because wartime Germany wasn't easily divided between 'innocent  civilians' and it's military machine."

I think it can be applied to most pilots, regardless of country.

I tend to agree.

- Jig

[Hangtime]

StSanta..

Flame awaits thee in the O Club.

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 08-02-2000).]

[texace]

War is hell. People died, things were broken. It's all history. That's why they write those books, to teach us about our history and our past. I really believe bringing this kind of stuff to the board is just a fruitless exploit for attention. You may haved talked during the game, but it doesn't need to be here. It's all past, you can't change it no matter what you do. Just live with it and drive on. This thread has gone on long enough. Everyone just don't worry about this thread, It'll disappear soon.


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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
    "Fait Accompli"

[Toad]

"If we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find we have lost the future." Winston Churchill

Pretty sharp for such an old dead guy!

Can we stop now?

...or at least move it out to the O-Club topic?

[funked]

Jig - WOW.  That is a great quote.  Chuck has more brains than I give him credit for.  

[danish]

Jigster, good quote!
Can I ask from where you have it?

danish

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by milnko:
 I was in the US Navy during the 80's (1981 to 1989) and having traveled through out Europe, my impression was that most Europeans liked Americans, with the exception of the French    (Image removed from quote.)  I think they hate EVERYONE  J  <G,D,R>

2 questions  

How can you be sure that I hate you ?  
<G,D,R>  <= What that mean ?

Hey RAM!
I agree with you about the "traité de Versailles" (or Versailles Dicktat for others   )
But if you dig a little in the past year about 1870 or 1815 it was not uncommon to have this kind of traité at that time ...

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by danish:
Jigster, good quote!
Can I ask from where you have it?

danish

His autobiography, "On the Deck" chapter.
He continues for about another two pages on dealing with strafing missions.

Another passage:

"Early in my tour, I heard that one of the guys had seen a 109 strafe American bomber crew in their chutes. I thought it was bad practice in every way. Both sides at least gave lip service to a gentleman's agreement not to do it. And if I had to jump for it again, I could hope the agreement was being honored that day.
     You didn't sit around brooding, because if you did, you'd never get through it. It could be tough playing God down on the deck, picking and choosing who or what to target in your gunsight. For example, during the D-Day operations, Andy [C.E."Bud" Anderson] and a few others spotted a German Tiger tank entering a small French village. They strafed the damn thing, but their bullets just bounced off that thick armor plating. The tank pulled up next to a little hotel. Our guys carrying bombs and one of them told Andy, 'I think I can dive bomb and get a direct hit.' Well he missed and blew that hotel into the next province. He was sick about it; that incedent haunted him for a long time. Don Bochkay came in on a freight train as it was passing through a French village. Just as he began to strafe, he saw the engineer jump down from the locomotive and run for his life. That train was packed with munitions and when it blew, the village was demolished.
     Targets of opportunity meant legitimate military targets, which should have been clear mandate, but often wasn't. Three of our guys came in over a cleary marked German hospital train. They were passing overhead when the sides of one car slapped down and machine guns opened up, knocking down one of them. During the Normandy invasion, the Germans used church belfries as observation posts, and stored ammo and bivouacked troops in school houses. They were ruthless about hiding behind civilians in occupied territory, while we became calloused in order to get the job done. And over Germany, where you would be killed or taken prisoner if forced to bail out, there were hundreds  of scared young pilots free-lancing down on the deck every day--hitting fast and getting the hell out, and maybe not being too particular about what they shot at.
     That's why I loved to dogfight. It was a clean honest contest of skill, stamina, courage, one on one."


- Jig