On the duties of the Luftwaffe

[StSanta]

A few days ago, there was a jolly amusing discussion on ch1 regarding Luftwaffe, its duties and the consequences of it doing what it was sent out to do.

Basically, the argument went like this: since LW fought for a murderous madman who slaughtered millions of innocent civilians, what the LW did was in fact aid in these murders by buying the nazi's time. Even after the war was lost, the Luftwaffe Nazi's (not my words) continued to fight, enabling even more innocents to be killed.

When it was pointed out that the allieds were firebombing German civilians, and that increasingly, the LW went up to defend cities and the civilians within them the retort was "what about London?"

Well, two wrongs doesn't make one right. Maybe the allieds should have learned that it is not possible to break the morale of a people by bombing cities.

At any rate, my take on it is this; if I was a German and saw the consequences of firebombing, I would try to stop it. I would not fight for the madman, but for my fellow Germans. Taking in account the brutality of the Germans and the Russians on the Eastern front, I'd want to hold off the enemy for as long as possible. Galland sad in a 1991 interview:

"But we did fight. We fought because we felt we had to, for better conditions. Unconditional surrender was the very worst thing. I always hoped to split the Russians from the Western Allies. It was our hope in the dark. If the Western Allies had said, "We agree to certain conditions", the war would have been shorter."

The individuals on the allied side of the discussion continued saying that "they still continued killing American boys". Of course, the easy retort would be "the bombers continued killing civilians" but that is another issue.

Note: I am in no way trying to defend or justify the evil German regime. It just feels a little wrong that the LW should be considered murderous butcherers directly responsible for the Holocaust.

The way I see it, they were soldiers doing their job. If I was born and alive in Germany during the same time, I doubt I would have been able to first resist the seduction of the mass psychosis, and secondly stand idly by as bombs fell on civilians.

I must reiterate that I do not condone or admire the Germans for what they did to civilians. I also must stress that I know there were committed nazi's in the LW. But, that is not my point  .

Thoughts?


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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Maniac]

My first tought was "im not gonna touch this one with an 10 yard stick"

The Luftwaffe was built by Nazis, nuff said.



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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[RAM]

If people says that the LW was a murder machine and its pilots were a bunch of nazis because they served their country well, but under the command of an sick nazi madman, then I say that the B29 crews that bombed Tokio, Osaka,all the Japanese cities with incendiary bombs,are remorseless war criminals.

And the british night bomber crews were a bunch of war criminals because they bombed cities not factories. And not to talk about Dresden bombing and the glorious vision of american escort fighters straffing civilians on the streets...


Ah,of course, not to talk about the Red Air Force, they were all a bunch of monster communist war criminals because they fought well for their country, a country lead by a devil of bigger dimensions than Hitler, Stalin.

The argument of LW prejudged because they flew and fought for Germany when it was a nazi country is so lacking ,and so repulsive because of its lack of objetiveness, that I really feel the need to puke when I read about it.

To all the squareheads who thing that Luftwaffe pilots was a bunch of nazis:

 http://www.411.playnet.com/interviews.htm

Read about the Brown-Stiegler interview. All the 3 parts. And after you read them, you'll surely learn a lot about german pilots in World War II, and after it. Stiegler hit a man who called him Nazi repeatedly, and I am sure that most LW pilots would've done just the same.

Damn this hole matter sickens me...men who bravely fought to defend their country are judged because the monster who ruled their country...

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

Hitler realy didn't give a toejam about the Luftwaffe, he regarded it solely as a force to assist Panzers in ground operations and used it as a scapegoat for all his blunders.
Operation Bodenplatte was originally planned to aid in the Ardennes offensive. Bodenplatte or Baseplate turned out to be a high cost in experienced LW leaders and equipment, which could have been used in a massive action against the U.S. bombing offensive namely Der Grosse Schlag(Great Blow) planned by Galland.

Goring too was a fool, Genralfieldmarshall Milch approached him in November of 43 stating that there needed to be an increase in the number of LW day fighters to stem the American air offensive, mainly the bombers, Goring replied that the American bombing is "fanciful and BEYOND American industrial capacity."

In the end the Luftwaffe found itself as 2nd priority to Hitler as it always was and finding itself fighting the Panzers for much needed fuel.

The men of the LW were protecting their homeland, try and put yourself in their shoes, were you going to let people you don't know anything about bomb your countrie's cities and threaten the lives of your loved ones?  

p.s. I doubt many of the LW on the Western Front knew of the attrocities happening against the Jews, I know that JG 52 witnessed such killings in Byelaya Tserkov, Ukraine. After the war Hermann Graf lost his mind because of what he witnessed and repressed in his mind, he joined the organization of Communist ex-Wehrmacht officers and claimed that everything he did during the war was wrong.

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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"

 

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

C'mon guys!  This is a sim depicting WW2 combat, not a political arena where one is judged by their squadron affliations! (I could be wrong on that, some of you are seemingly doing so!)

Lets just enjoy our historic and non-historic squadrons the way they are without political affliations.  If you want to talk about politics, go  the officers club and duke it out, leave it off the open buffer, it a waste of your typing skills!  

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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO= VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Know your limits and then go beyond.."
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info
  Click here for VMF-323 Website
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I spare no class or cult or  creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton

[Hangtime]

Hunh. I used to think we were on the 'right' side.. you know; the 'good guys'.

We didn't start the fight. We didn't wanna be there. It was a 'european war'.

So; suprise of surprises; we get into a european war via the drop of some bombs on the 7th fleet in the pacific. Who'd a guessed?

Anyway; once it was over; rather than loading the defeated nations military; it's officers; it's politicians; it's educated citizens and their leading industrialists into boxcars and giving them a taste of their own justice we instead gave them back their nations; allowed them to re-establish their rights as free citizens and paid for the rebuilding of their countrys.

Not to mention the cold war... if not for us; they'd be speakin Russian from Ireland to South Africa.

And we have been hated ever since. 'Opportunists' is the kindest of labels we bear. They bristile when we suggest that fighting for an evil system; a society that burns books; a race of people and preaches 'Master Race' and anounces it's intention to deny a free people of another Nation of it's rights could be construed as being a 'nazi'.

Hmmmmmm; maybe we made a mistake...

Hang

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Hunh. I used to think we were on the 'right' side.. you know; the 'good guys'

.

Error. US was in the right side,the allied side...

But that DOESNT make ALL US fighting people in WWII automatically the "good guys". You could be a F**** Son of a b*** in the allied side, and the fact that you are in the right side doeesnt make you a good guy. For me Harris was one of the worst War Criminals in WWII, and he was (and still is) admired as a hero...While valiant No-nazi german expilots were menaced ,insulted and spitted by their own country people because they fighted to defend Germany and the same people who spitted them after the war...a nazi germany ,yes, but still their home...Vae victis

 

We didn't start the fight. We didn't wanna be there. It was a 'european war'.

So? that allowed the US to reduce Tokio to ashes?...the goal doesnt justify the methods,hang. A basically good crusade can end in a criminal series of action...it all depends on attitudes, and while most on allied side were good, some were BAD...near of that in the Nazi side.

 

So; suprise of surprises; we get into a european war via the drop of some bombs on the 7th fleet in the pacific. Who'd a guessed?

Be objective, Hang...FDR wanted to get US into the European war at all costs. PH was a bloody sad day but it have him the reason to get involved in the war. WIth no PH US would've gone into the war, anyway...later and with other reasons, but they'd been there anyway.
 

Anyway; once it was over; rather than loading the defeated nations military; it's officers; it's politicians; it's educated citizens and their leading industrialists into boxcars and giving them a taste of their own justice we instead gave them back their nations; allowed them to re-establish their rights as free citizens and paid for the rebuilding of their countrys.

Luckily they learned the lessons from WWI. Had they done another Versalles, Europe would be now a Hate nest, isntead the European Union.

As I said, Allied were the good guys. Axis the bad guys. But there were VERY BAD people indeed on the allied side and there were really chivalrous people on the Axis side (ask Sakai why didnt he kill that civiliand DC-3 in Dutch indies in 1942, or ask Stiegler why didnt he kill that defenceless B17 when he was one kill away from being awarded his knight's cross ,and he was risking a court martial for not killling the enemy...

Luftwaffe pilots were german. Some were nazis, for sure. Most ,for sure, weren't. Same in GErman Army, same in Kriegsmarine (Lindemann, Bismarck's captain ,was a active antinazi, and Lutjens refused to wear the Nazi insignia, wearing the Kaiserliche Marine's insignias in their place...

They defended their country and their people. And 55 years later they are still hated because the war was started by a syphilitic mad nazi monster that ruled their country because (YES BECAUSE) British' and French' unstoppable desire of revenge after WWI...

As I said...Vae Victis...




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Jochen]

Stupid thread. These things will never be settled, no matter how much folks argue about them.

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jochen
Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen'  Warbirds

T-34/76 to Aces High!

Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes

[maik]

This isthe kind of thread that could make me think of leavin AH   .

Maik

German and still no Nazi, never was and never will be!
But probably ONLY born americans belong to the good guys.
Congrats to ur BRIGHT history.

[This message has been edited by maik (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Staga]

Some guys really didn't read their history books in school...

[Rooster]

Maik,,,  Be glad it so bright. Consider the alternative

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Staga:
Some guys really didn't read their history books in school...

Aye soupurt pooblik idimakatiun!
-SW

[Revvin]

Well all I can say is for anyone who wants to depict the whole Luftwaffe as Nazi nutters then they should read "Heaven Next Stop - A Luftwaffe Pilot At War" by Gunther Bloemertz one of the famous 'Abbeville Boys' of JG26. I haven't read a factual book thats stirred so much emotion while reading it. Read that and then tell me they were all a bunch of animals and not men that in the end were fighting to save their own families.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Rooster:
Consider the alternative

THe alternative if no USA involved at all in european matters?

WWI won by Central powers, but one that weakened Germany a lot. Results: no Versalles, no postwar depression in GErmany ,maybe Fascist government on France, but not very probable, imo.

Austria-Hungary would've disintegrated just as it did, it was too weak to avoid its fate...maybe the Balcans would've had another solution better than Yugoslavia,maybe a multinational Balcans like the one today...avoiding things that are still resounding today, and are a shame for the modern Europe...

For sure I like that more than Versalles, Nazi Party, and WWII...

Only speculation, of course...but as you can see Sometimes a not-so-bright US past dont seem so bad isnt it?


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Apache]

I shouldn't have wrote this.

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 08-01-2000).]