Author Topic: AH IL-2 armour weakness  (Read 1430 times)

Offline ramzey

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2003, 07:55:52 PM »
regards to numbers produced ostwinds i bet they have poor chance to not meet in battle

ramzey

btw are u know only 43 ostwinds where build during ww2?

Offline Batz

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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2003, 08:17:51 PM »
Squire, of the pilots listed by me how many are in the top 5%?

Guys read the kills claims you will see plenty of lw pilots you never heard of killing multi il2s.

Ramzey this thread is about the modelling of AHs il2 and how some percieve it to be "weak" based on a single question to a finnish pilot flying an under gunned aircraft.

Look up the armor thickness on the il2. All of it can be penetrated. Its average I believe about 6mm. It has nothing to do with one or 2 ace lw pilots killing them. They dropped as easy as any other aircraft.

The only thing the il2 protected against was small arm ground fire and flak burst. Its armor was around the pilot and the eng. It wasnt some super plane that flew around absorbing tons of ammo.

Fhj.Fw. Herbert Bachnick of 9./JG 52 on 07.01.44 flying a 109 shot down 5 ils as indicated on the first page of that pdf of kill claims in the link I provided. If you read that you will see these 5 kills were verfied by film. He shot them down at 300m agl.

I dont know what point some of you are arguing but the il2 was nothing special.

aaa protection particularly for convoys of light vehicles was sporadic at best. The greatest threat to most attack sorties were small arms ground fire and flak bursts. Thats what the il2 was designed to be protected against. It was not  protected against flak panzers of any type. It certainly wasnt protected against fighters.

Heres how attack planes stopped armor in ww2

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/books/kursk/images/battle_kursk_0139.jpg

Offline Batz

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2003, 08:20:14 PM »
One more thing this here is the only real tank killer of ww2 and only 1 pilot was very successfull at it......

http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/stuka.mpg

Just fyi here some more interesting  gun camera clips

http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy.htm

enjoy........

Offline Squire

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2003, 09:33:29 PM »
"LW pilots made careers out of smacking il2s out of the sky....."

Surely you arent talking about the lower 5 percent then? :)

Just making a point that ace LW pilots who show large #s of kills on certain types may have more to do with the skill or experience involved than flaws in a particular a/c. That holds true with P-51s, Il-2s, or C-47s for that matter.

Again, as far as the IL-2, it may very well be its just as well protected as it should be in AH. I really dont know.
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2003, 10:10:13 PM »
as I said read the kill claims in the links I posted. Goto the site I linked and look up the top il2 killer.s

Ever heard of Fritz Seyffardt? he had 30 kills in ww2. All 30 were il2s.

I know what I am talking about.

Was Fhj.Fw. Herbert Bachnick in the top 5% he had multi kill il2 sorties.

Do you know what rank Fhj.Fw. is? Bachnick was an ace in 30min killing il2s.

Maj. Wiese killed  133 soviet planes 70+ were il2s.

Oblt. Kurt Dombacher killed 43  il2s out of a total of 68 kills credited.

There were many who had 10+ il2 kills.

Hartman had 352 kills only 30 of those il2s. It was hardly the hartmans that were killing all these il2s.

You offer opinion inspite of the facts that prove otherwise.

Was the il2 tough to shoot down in a  Morane-Saulnier  406? Hell any plane was tough to shoot down with those guns and that limited ammo.

But that doesnt mean the il2 wasnt smacked out of the sky when it had contact with enemy fighters. Because it was.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2003, 01:58:04 PM »
About Il2's and their durability, I have to second what Batz is saying...

I used them in AH to great success when operating with a group of Il2s using attacks coming from different directions at the same time.

In Forgotten Battles (as a reference point) if you setup a mission in QMB using any Il2 you want with just you in the flight, on the Crimean map with the airbase as the target- first pass, or second pass you are going to be SOL. I just tested this to be sure, There's 7 flaks total on the field, 3 near the 4 parked He111s on the left side from where you start out, and 3 closer to you between the runway and the taxi-way on the left side.

First pass I dove in, taking hits the entire way- destroyed 2 of the 3 flaks closest to me, and on my egress destroyed 3 of 3 flaks near the parked He111s. They got my oil though and I had holes throughout my wings and fuselage- 23mm on the right wing disabled.

Second pass, I line up on the truck convoy that has a flak in it, fire off my rockets. Then get hit, black smoke pouring from my engine and losing power at a steady rate.

This is about comparable with the defense 1 Flak will have in AH.

So I went back to the drawing board, got myself 2 wingmen and did the attack again. First pass I screwed up and only got 1 flak in each of the groups. I turned back, and finished off the rest of the flaks with my guns. One of my wingmen was missing, prolly shot down by the flaks. Second pass, finish off the remaining flaks and the single other AA half-track (dunno calibre, it spews yellow tracers though). Completely leveled the field without a scratch on me or my remaining wingman. Have the track if you wanna see it.

It shows nothing more, however, than the use of group/wing tactics to force the AA batteries to track multiple targets. This creates an ineffective defense, since they can't concentrate their fire on a single incoming plane.

Much like the Russians learned early on, after they lost almost the entire 4 ShAP equipped with the single seat Il2, employing group tactics and proper attack methods will the plane's full abilites be seen... otherwise, they will fall out of the skies like a swarm of mosquitos freshly sprayed with Raid.

It's not very fast, or manueverable, compared to other attack planes- so you have to use it in numbers.
-SW

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2003, 02:03:30 PM »
didnt rudel once down an il2 with his stuka???

Offline Rasker

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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2003, 02:37:08 AM »
I recall reading about 109's expending their entire ammo loads shooting into Il2's (in the wrong places) without result, and also that LW pilots were instructed to shoot the oil cooler on the lower right side of the nose as the most effective way of disabling the beast.  It sounds from people talking about losing the oil to ground and aricraft fire as though that aspect at least, has been accurately modeled.  

Btw, does anyone know what the characteristics are of the two types of rockets available with this plane?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 02:40:32 AM by Rasker »

Offline Dr Zhivago

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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2003, 12:40:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rasker
I recall reading about 109's expending their entire ammo loads shooting into Il2's (in the wrong places) without result, and also that LW pilots were instructed to shoot the oil cooler on the lower right side of the nose as the most effective way of disabling the beast.  It sounds from people talking about losing the oil to ground and aricraft fire as though that aspect at least, has been accurately modeled.  

Btw, does anyone know what the characteristics are of the two types of rockets available with this plane?


http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/armament/rs82.htm
http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/armament/rs132.htm

Offline Widewing

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2003, 12:42:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe

It shows nothing more, however, than the use of group/wing tactics to force the AA batteries to track multiple targets. This creates an ineffective defense, since they can't concentrate their fire on a single incoming plane.
-SW


A couple of days ago, three of us took up IL-2s to deal with a massive Bish GV assault on our field. We worked the Ostwinds as a group, attacking from 3 different directions. It was very effective. I took a 37mm hit that shot off an aileron, so I landed 5 kills (mixed bag of Flaks, Panzers and M3s). I grabbed a fresh IL-2 (ordnance was disabled at this field, so all kills were gun kills), and got 5 more. Lost my radiator to MG fire, landed and reupped again. Killed two Panzers, a Spitfire and a DHog who tried to pee on our party. Face shot both of them. However, with only 25% gas available, the engine soon quit and I headed for the field in a glide. Running out of altitude, I dropped the gear and set up to land short of the runway. Just then, an La-7 and Mustang dove in on me. Needless to say, I was unable to avoid them. However, they needed several passes to kill the Stormovik, which absorbed and enormous amount of lead before something important was hit. It's a tough airplane. The other guys landed between 8 and 10 kills over two sorties as well. Eventually, we were all shot up by the incoming swarm of fighters. However, we killed about 30 enemy for our three losses, a ratio I'll take anyday.

I see no issues with survivability of the IL-2.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Innominate

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AH IL-2 armour weakness
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2003, 03:52:27 AM »
IL2's in AH are actually disgustingly durable.  However like most planes other planes in ah, they also have glass tails which seem to be held on with chewing gum.

However, the problem of the il2 isnt so much it's lack of durability, but rather, the high percentage of AA targets they need to deal with.  Throw in the fact that most of those are ostwinds which most of the time score one hit kills against even an il2, and you've got a tough time for the ground attack planes.

Still, the il2 is my favorite GV busting plane.