Author Topic: P-47  (Read 6221 times)

Offline Widewing

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P-47
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2003, 02:50:19 PM »
To begin, the P-47M was built from P-47D-27-REs pulled right from the production line and fitted with the more powerful "C" series R-2800-57 engine. It was fitted with dive recovery flaps, revised ailerons (improved roll rate by about 20%) and some other details later added to the -30. Originally, they were built without the wing shackles to minimize drag, although these were later added in theater. As for weight, the difference between the M and the D-27 was a matter of a few pounds. It was much lighter than the P-47N, simply because the N had a larger and heavier wing.

One reason so many would love to have the P-47M in AH is it's speed and climb are excellent. About 370 mph on the deck, up to 480 mph at 32k. At 20k, it would be the fastest accelerating fighter in AH, bar none. Climb at sea level should be about 3,700 fpm, with full fuel and ammo. At 50% fuel, it'll approach 3,900 ft/min. Even at 15k, it should still be climbing at 3,400 ft/min with full tanks. If we ever get the P-47M, count on it being perked like the F4U-4.

As it is, we're limited to the P-47D-30-RE for now, but it's no slug.

Prior to tour 37, and even though I've been playing AH for quite some time now, I hadn't flown 20 sorties in the P-47 since I began and virtually all were heavy attack sorties. Towards the end of tour 37 I decided it was time to learn the Jug. So, I flew both the D-11 and D-30 some, gaining experience and learning their strengths and areas of weakness. Since the Jug is a designated fighter for tour 40 (along with the Corsair...), I flew about 10 sorties at the end of tour 39 as a refresher. Results were good at 39/2, with one loss to ground ack and the other being vulched on the rearm pad. So early in this tour, I've only flown two Jug sorties (only three fighter sorties altogether), but managed to get another 5 without loss, all fighters, all air to air.

It took me a little while to learn some of what Ammo and Sancho already know. The P-47D is a monster as long as you manage your E and stay off the deck when enemy hordes are nearby. This is not the fighter to launch for base defense. However, once you have some speed and alt, you can fight and beat anything, inasmuch as you fight to your fighter's strengths and not to the enemy's strengths.

Simply stated, there is no better handling fighter at high speed than the P-47. Unlike the P-51 and even Ta 152, you will have a hard time hurting the Jug during 550 mph pullouts. You can horse the Thunderbolt around at high speeds without fear of breaking it.
At 400+ mph the Jug rolls very well, whereas many fighters are stiffening up, and 109s begin to bog like they're in concrete. Above 25k the P-47 is extremely formidable. At 30k or above, it owns the sky. Although the Ta 152 is very fast up high, any high G maneuvering is dangerous as its wings come off quite easily. Not so the P-47... It rocks up there. At those altitudes, Mustangs tend to wallow at bit, 190s are simply out of breath, and 109s are constantly dealing with compressibility locking up the ailerons. Russian fighters are all but helpless up high, same for the Japanese junk. Spitfire IXs are reasonably fast, but lack the power reserve to cope with the P-47, and in my opinion can no longer out-turn a P-47, even at lower speeds. Damn few AH pilots have significant combat experience at 30k and above. Some guys have never even been above 20k.

Nonetheless, most air combat takes place below 15k, so how does the P-47 manage to cope at these altitudes? It copes just fine, thank you. Just remember to stay fast, work the vertical and use the Jug's dive acceleration and zoom ability.

I'm sure that Ammo and Sancho have specific load-outs they prefer that offer the most performance for the least sacrifice in killing power. I'll offer those I use and others can comment.

Fighter load-out: Typically, I load 50% internal fuel and a single belly tank. I always take 8 guns, full ammo load. If the sortie will cover more than two sectors (there and back). I may load 75% internal and the belly tank. I never, ever take 100% internal fuel. Endurance on 75% is enough for almost any mission, adding external fuel as required. Generally, the belly tank will get me to altitude and reasonably near my objective. A Jug flying with less than 50% gas is far more agile than one plodding along with full tanks. Some guys even opt for 6 guns to improve agility even more. I'd rather have the extra punch though, 'cause if that little increase in agility is what I need to succeed or even survive, I've already screwed up anyway.

Light/medium Jabo load-out: I use this when joining an attack in a base that will probably be partially down when I arrive. I take fuel and guns as above, add two 250 lbs bombs and 10 rockets. This load allows me to deal with GVs and the rockets can be used against anything spawning or the town as required. Two tours ago I killed 6 B-26s on the runway with a single rocket pass. That's why I always take rockets. In addition, the 8 gun load-out is better should you have to vulch spawning aircraft (if vulching is your goal, take a CHog or Tiffie instead).

For heavy Jabo, two 500 or 1,000 pound bombs and 10 rockets are the standard load just about everyone carries. I rarely drag that much to a target as the tactical disadvantage of miserable climb rate means extending the ride duration and often arriving at less than the optimal altitude (18k AGL for me).

Spend some time in the TA flying the Jug against various fighters. Practice at high altitudes too. Then, strive to improve one's SA. That, more than any other factor, will determine how well you do, regardless of what you elect to fly. Knowing where every actual and potential threat is, its altitude and E state is paramount to success in the MA. That means keeping one's head on a perpetual swivel and checking the DAR every few minutes at the least. The goal is never to be surprised. If you've recently uttered the words, "something just killed me!", your SA needs work.

How does this relate to the P-47? Well, if you have a good understanding on how to exploit the airplane, combined with superior SA, you will be a terror to any enemy you encounter.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: May 03, 2003, 03:24:31 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2003, 03:11:23 PM »
Well, first I have become very rusty and impatient in the past weeks.  So, you can find me in the weds at the hottest and biggest furball on the map normally.

To survive in the jug..IMO first and foremost is learn to shoot!  You need to be able to pull of those oblique shots.  The quickest way to get dead in a jug is to get embroiled in a dogfight with another AC and have many enemy's in the vicinity.  That isn't a problem if you kill him at first oppertunity.  If you miss your oppertunity, best look for some extention and recover a good position.  Most frustrating position to be in for me a jug, have several kills, and manage to escape from a bad situation with multiple enemy (spits, N1k's, low wingloaded AC).  You have exchanged all that altitude for some speed and escape and you see mr La7 or Mr dora or mustang coming for you.  They pass the still pursuing spits and N1k's and force you to break hard which leaves the fast AC without a shot but now the spits and N1K's are all over ya!  Its a vicious cycle:D

IF you achieve good gunnery, then your experience in the jug will be much more enjoyable.  Put those 8x50's to good use!  no spraying, use disciplined tactics, ie wait till your within your killing cone (if your set your convergence to 300 yds, then your killing cone is out to 600.  I like all 8 of my guns set at 300).
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Offline Stegahorse

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P-47
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2003, 06:08:37 PM »
For all the advice, no one seems to understand. The P-47D-11 was able to EAT the FW-190A series for Breakfast. It is not reflected in Any arena save one that I've been in and it was an offline game. Nothing out dove it, yet in AH everything Does. The P-47 M was what the 358th Fighter Wing Got when they demanded to keep the T-bolt.  The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. They admired the Thunderbolt so much, that they ordered 500 of the P-47N models when the war was moved to the Pacific. The War was over before any could be delivered. The F4u fights so well and the P-47 fights SO POOR   BS!
And I meet and had a very interesting convesation with the man that winged Gabby, R Johnson, Zemke and most every other T-bolt ace in Europe.    His Exacy words"Nothing could beat a Thunerbolt above 27,000 ft."
When we going to see that?
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Offline Regurge

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P-47
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2003, 08:27:47 PM »
Check the performace charts stegahorse. Above 25k the d11 is faster and climbs better than the 190A-5. The A-8 is even worse. But the D11 is not some superplane that lets you shoot down any other plane at will. If you come up against someone better at flying a 190 than you are flying a Jug then you die.

The Corsair was a very good fighter and US pilots at the joint fighter conference tended to agree that it was better than the P47 below 20k.


You're taking what Gabreski said too literally. Any plane could be shot down and the Thunderbolt was no exception. I'd bet at least one was shot down above 27,000ft. What you're missing is that very few planes can compete on even terms with a Jug at hi-alt.

Just the other day I chased a g-10 from 16k up to 35k. Once we got up to 30k I closed the distance from 4k down to 2k and then he tried to spiral climb on me.  Here's what happened. We just went round and round until it was obvious I'd run out of fuel before anything happened. I didnt dominate but there was nothing he could do to shake me.

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2003, 09:52:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stegahorse
For all the advice, no one seems to understand. The P-47D-11 was able to EAT the FW-190A series for Breakfast. It is not reflected in Any arena save one that I've been in and it was an offline game. Nothing out dove it, yet in AH everything Does. The P-47 M was what the 358th Fighter Wing Got when they demanded to keep the T-bolt.  The F4u was first flown by the Brits , and first launched of Carriers by Brits. They Proved that the corsair could not compete with the German Aircraft. They admired the Thunderbolt so much, that they ordered 500 of the P-47N models when the war was moved to the Pacific. The War was over before any could be delivered. The F4u fights so well and the P-47 fights SO POOR   BS!
And I meet and had a very interesting convesation with the man that winged Gabby, R Johnson, Zemke and most every other T-bolt ace in Europe.    His Exacy words"Nothing could beat a Thunerbolt above 27,000 ft."
When we going to see that?


The ONLY WW2 unit that flew the P-47M operationally was the 56 FG.

While I will agree that the FM's are not perfect in AH, the P-47 models not withstanding,  it is a very tough thing to model correctly.  Pilot anctedotes cannot be considered gospel.
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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2003, 10:30:16 PM »
StegaHorse,

Are you feeling ok?

The Brits proved the F4U could not compete with German A/C??

Where exactly did you read that??

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2003, 10:43:49 PM »
StegaHorse,

Just read more of your post.

FYI.

The P-47 had a dive restriction of 500MPH IAS.

The P-51 had a restriction of 505MPH and the P-63 was 525MPH. So there is no such thing as "it could outdive anything".

Until the P-47N which had clipped wings it had a very moderate roll rate and because of high wing loading it had a poor turning circle.

If it was in fact superior to these other A/C what part of it's performance made it so?

Take a look here. The P-47 weight was a little chunkier than you think.

 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2003, 10:55:45 PM by F4UDOA »

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2003, 11:53:20 PM »
actually, while the P-47's didn't have an good low speed turning rate, it had outstanding control at high speed.
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Offline Regurge

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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2003, 02:06:04 AM »
I think stega was referring to the many acounts of P-47 pilots claiming to easily out-accelerate German planes in a dive. I agree that for the most part it just doesnt work out like that in AH. At least, not like the pilots make it sound.

Against moderatey fast planes any diving advantage the P47 has is slim. I've had Spitfire IX's closing slowly on my 6 follow me through 550mph dives and come out going exactly the same speed as my D30. Against 190s and 109G's the advantage is even less. Relative E-states and timing of the dive start is usually more important than actual performace in the dive. Only against Zero's and early war types can you see a big advantage that can get you out of a tight spot fairly easily.

Offline Steve

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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2003, 03:22:39 AM »
I read Bob Johnson's book.  He claimed nothing was close to being able to catch his jug in a dive.  It's the only account I have read one way or the other.  I understand his love of the plane may have influenced his prose but OTOH I don't have any accounts to the contrary.
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Offline Naudet

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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2003, 03:45:26 AM »
Stegahorse, you forget something when you say the P47 was able to eat the FW190A for breakfast.

This is right for WW2 and for AH.
But only under certain circumstances.
The P47 will eat any FW190A once you meet it above 25k.
This is because it has much more power there due to its supercharger.

i.e. there are many german pilot accounts that the FW190A easily outperformed the P47. This is also right in WW2 and in AH, again under certain circumtances.
At low altittudes the FW190A will outperform the P47 cause it has the better speed and climb at low/med alts, as the FW190A was a low/med alt fighter and the P47 was a high altittude escort fighter.
Especially the light FW190A5 will do very well against a P47.


And the reason why the USAAF considered the F4U or F6 not suitable for the European Combat Theatre was the fact that both fighters were low/med altittude fighters, but over Europe the USAAF primarily needed fighters that could escort the streams of B17s at 25+k.
And with the old rivalry between the Army, Navy and the Marine the USAAF might have just stick to their own fighters insteed of admit that the Navy/Marines had the better fighters. ;)

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2003, 08:24:05 AM »
While I will agree that the FM of the P-47 in AH is not perfect by my perception,  I have success using a "zero-G" dive to escape enemy fighters.  I do have trouble diving away from spitfires. Why?  I dunno.  But I get away from 109's and 190's most of the time.  I get the AC up to a speed just shy of lockup and then make subtle directional changes.  Alot of the time, the enemy cant follow, or just chooses to recover his perch above the fight.

109's?  I walk away from them in a dive pretty easily.  Once the speed gets terminal, I just do a flick of the alerons and see ya 109.
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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2003, 11:32:57 AM »
Naudet,

There was nothing that prevented the F4F, F6F or F4U from combat in the European theater except logistics and interservice rivalry. In fact the F4F and F6F scored several kills in Europe. And the F4U did see some combat although no ariel combat. One Brit pilot even landed a F4U at a German base but I haven't seen any german evaluations.

Barret Tillman has a quote from Commander Thomas H. Moorer of the NavAirLant staff during a breifing on project "Danny" which had MAG 51 5 squadrons of F4U's delivering 11.75" Tiny Tim Rockets to V-1 sites in Europe.

Moorer says that Gen. George C Marshall came into the meeting and said quote "That's the end of this briefing. As long as I'm in charge there will never be a Marine in Europe".

FYI. Moorer went on to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

I have no idea if there were actually Marines in Europe or not but it certainly doesn't sound like altitude problems to me.

Offline Rutilant

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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2003, 11:40:04 AM »
Ah, but the P47 indeed does have a dive advantage ove the 109s and 190s - while it can pull out at 550 with use of dive flaps, the 109s and 190 models i've flown are compressed by then, take em low enough and if they follow.... splat

Take em low enough in the dive

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2003, 11:45:11 AM »