Author Topic: Condolence/condoléance  (Read 1661 times)

Offline Dowding

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2003, 04:10:41 PM »
The majority of NI wants to remain part of the UK - for economic reasons mainly and patriotic. Most of the industry was concentrated up there too.

The negociations were done in secret at first by John Major. For years the line had been "We don't negociate with terrorists", as had been proved over and over (the Iranian Embassy attack by the SAS being a good example). It seemed like the killing would never end. Everyone was tired of it. By reaching out to the moderates, you take away the support for the extremist nut-jobs. Compromise was the key.

The road has not been smooth. The Real IRA, essentially the hardcore elements of the group, refused to accept the IRA ceasefire and continued murdering. This culminated in the Omagh bombing which killed 38 men, women and children and injured hundreds more. There was disgust and outrage from all quarters. The Real IRA essentially had cut its own throat - there was now real feeling that there had to be way of resolving the issues at stake, real motivation.

The Good Friday Agreement was borne, which allowed for power sharing and decentralisation of government. NI itself would take on some of the roles that had previously been restricted to London.

In a referendum, 89% of the population of NI voted for this agreement. I think people simply wanted to live in peace.

The road is long, and the power-sharing executive is at the moment dissolved because Sinn Fein (political wing of the IRA) had spies within Stormant (where the NI Assembly is based) spying on the Unionists. I'm sure this will be resolved. It's what the people want.

I'm no expert, but this is my understanding of the situation in brief. :)
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline GtoRA2

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Dowd
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2003, 04:13:12 PM »
Can you recomend any good books on the whole IRA mess?

Offline midnight Target

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2003, 04:36:32 PM »
Syz, I do believe this here pot has been well stirred. :D

Offline Syzygyone

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Hehehehehe
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2003, 04:42:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Syz, I do believe this here pot has been well stirred. :D


!Chaos, Panic, Confusion, Disorder!  My work here is done!

Next!

:D :D :D :D :D

Actually, Dowding's most recent posts are enlightening.  How to deal with terrorism is an interesting dilemma

Offline SLO

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2003, 04:44:33 PM »
2slow......eat me biatch:D....your assuming too much.

I think I know where dowdin is comin from.......

ya can't use ultimate force to deal with a religious ideology or fanatics.....

ya gots too educate the mass...not destroy em:)

but at some point dowding...syz is right....ya just can take so much of that chit.....

Offline Syzygyone

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2003, 04:58:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SLO

but at some point dowding...syz is right....ya just can take so much of that chit.....


Heheh if I were God, I'd start over with that flood thingy except I'd save the Swedish Bikini Team too!

Ooops, I prolly pissed off that Iron Chef guy! :eek:

Offline GrimCO

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2003, 10:11:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
I agree. It's working wonders for Israel. The Palestinian extremists don't attack as often anymore and they certainly don't seem to have any grass root support.

In fact, I can't remember the last time someone strapped explosives to their body and decided to kill dozens of women and children. But then I have a very short memory span - about a week. Which is very convenient in this particular case.


Sure Dowding,

We'll just give them a hug and try to talk it over like rational people do. Perhaps they're just "misunderstood".

Offline Dowding

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2003, 03:20:44 AM »
Sorry GTO - I haven't really read any books on the matter - it's just what I've picked up over the years starting with school history lessons and watching recent events unfold.

GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline -tronski-

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2003, 08:23:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Syzygyone
Poor attempt at a troll Tronski, you can do better.

They didn't win by appeasing.  Ol'e Winston made sure of that now, didn't he.  They won by willingly sacrifiicng hundreds of thousands of their young men in order to kickthe bad guy's ass!
It's a terrible price to pay but sometimes it has to be paid.

If your refering to the French, they didn't win anything!  The allies just brought them along for the ride!


Actually I think Dowding put it best

Quote
I was taking the piss.


I just love watching how all directions always point to the easy appeaser angle

 Tronsky
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 08:34:31 AM by -tronski- »
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline GrimCO

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2003, 08:40:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.


Nah, I didn't miss your point Dowding. Was just making a sarcastic point like you were.

I'm not even remotely on Isreal's side with the Palestine issue. I just strongly disagree with Palestine's tactics, and they seem to be working. Although they're absolutely correct in my opinion for wanting an end to Isreali occupation, I cannot dismiss their tactics as being a just cause.

This issue goes all the way back to biblical times, and is not merely political in nature. They think different than we do over there, and standard negotiation or reasoning does not apply.

Offline Martlet

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2003, 09:23:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Sorry GTO - I haven't really read any books on the matter - it's just what I've picked up over the years starting with school history lessons and watching recent events unfold.

GrimCO - you miss my point entirely.


What you've picked up over the years?  You're a freaking kid.  I'd love to be around when you get some age, maturity, and life experience under your belt, then realize what a fool you were.

Offline blitz

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2003, 02:37:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Syzygyone
Then you and I can probably agree that the intelliegence services have failed miserably once again!



The problem can't be solved with intelligence services, police and military only.

They are needed but political solutions are the only way that will really help.

ex. Had the war on drugs been won in any country of the west?

Takes me 1 hour to get every drug i like to get .

There was huge police resources spent to won tho, but it's useless because political answers are needed the most. Education, employment and such.


Regards Blitz
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 02:44:21 PM by blitz »

Offline Dowding

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2003, 03:50:41 PM »
Quote
They think different than we do over there, and standard negotiation or reasoning does not apply.


Sounds like the carte blanche the Israelis believe they have.

Most Palestinians want to live in peace. Give people something to live for and maybe they won't strap explosives to their bodies, or even support the people that do such things. Indescriminate killing radicalizes the whole population - the small number of radicals grow. The best way is to use the moderates to control the radicals through genuinely attractive incentives. The previous proposed peace plan didn't do that.

The Israelis believe they have found a solution. The key performance indicators of that particular solution - number of civilians killed - shows it's seriously not delivering. I think it's time for a new approach; and I hope all parties are held to the new road map.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline GrimCO

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Condolence/condoléance
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2003, 04:20:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Sounds like the carte blanche the Israelis believe they have.

Most Palestinians want to live in peace. Give people something to live for and maybe they won't strap explosives to their bodies, or even support the people that do such things. Indescriminate killing radicalizes the whole population - the small number of radicals grow. The best way is to use the moderates to control the radicals through genuinely attractive incentives. The previous proposed peace plan didn't do that.

The Israelis believe they have found a solution. The key performance indicators of that particular solution - number of civilians killed - shows it's seriously not delivering. I think it's time for a new approach; and I hope all parties are held to the new road map.


Dowding, I was in no way implying that all Palestinians are incapable of rational thought. However, you must remember that this conflict has been rooted into their psyches for generation upon generation dating back to biblical times. It's not just an issue to them, it has become an actual part of their culture.

The very nature of being "radical" precludes anyone from controlling them. I doubt some moderate Palestinians who may come into power will dissuade these radicals from their former ways, and convince them to follow this road map. If Isreal pulls out of Palestine (which I sincerely hope they do), anytime something doesn't go their way thereafter, I'm pretty sure these radicals will revert immediately to their old ways of strapping bombs to their chests and taking care of business.

Palestine must make a legitimate effort to punish and put these types of people in jail. Not just "discourage" them from using these tactics by telling them they shouldn't do it.