Author Topic: Update on the Trinity update...  (Read 2210 times)

Offline NoBaddy

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2003, 07:59:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
Oh, and Nobaddy, would it be possible to get a "blank" trinity map terrain for the editor? I mean, without the bases or strat targets on it?


Most things are possible...whatcha got in mind?
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Offline bj229r

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2003, 08:17:05 PM »
You rule NB....MMMMEEeeebbbeee one more thin...make the fediddlein mountains around Crater either 50k or put 5" acks all around them to keep the dweebs out...YES..i AM getting a bit 1-tracked on this
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Offline NoBaddy

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2003, 09:13:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
You rule NB....MMMMEEeeebbbeee one more thin...make the fediddlein mountains around Crater either 50k or put 5" acks all around them to keep the dweebs out...YES..i AM getting a bit 1-tracked on this


Actually, those mountains are just about right. That climb discourages most of the really dangerous drivers. That being the case, simply watch for sector counters entering. Grab a 51d with a dropsy and haul it into the crater. It is actually quite satisfying to find one of those dweebs trying to pee in the pool at tank town and givin him a .50 cal enema while his pants are 'round his ankles :D.

Seriously, the fields at tank town have to be capturable. They don't have to be easy (hence, the 18.5k access), but, captures to have to be possible.
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Offline Seeker

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2003, 05:55:10 AM »
Thanks NB :-)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2003, 06:11:00 AM »
I know someone's going to answer with the perverbial '2 Weeks' but is the upgraded Trinity map going to be available to play on soon (within a couple of months) or is it for the AH2 Classic Arena when it goes into beta sometime this fall?


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Offline beet1e

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2003, 06:19:18 AM »
Fariz said
Quote
But I do not numbers to be changed too strong. 1 goon which makes field up, like it was some versions before, put strat playing almost to complete stop.
And if I am reading him correctly, I agree with him entirely.

The changes seem to be more fields, closer together, more CVs, and vehicle fields being converted to airfields. To my mind, the whole package comes under the broad heading of unmitigated sop to Mr. Quickfix™. He's the guy who comes to the AH arena with a roll of quarters - an arcade player with 20 minutes to spare, and wants instant action and to be getting lots of kills within a couple of minutes of take off, the type of player who eulogises one stat, and one stat only - kills per hour, and uses this as his flawed yardstick of AH pilot proficiency.

Mr. Toad and others have often said the old refrain (or one like it) "The fight's the thing; everything else is just tripe", and no-one who has read this BBS can have missed the irony that it's Mr. Quickfix™ and his overbloated squadron who accuse other guys (strat guys) of being Generalissimos or armchair generals, when all the time it's Mr. Quickfix™ who wants map changes, Mr. Quickfix™ who wants strat changes, and Mr. Quickfix™ who wants "hardness" changes - despite repeated claims by Mr. Quickfix™ himself that he has no interest in strat. Why else would he want these changes unless to force the rest of the arena to play HIS way, and to facilitate HIS method of gameplay by removing any other tactics from the game by having them programmed out? Not only does Mr. Quickfix™ bleat about maps he doesn't like, his whining extends to HTC to alter target "hardness"  of certain targets (what BS - LOL! - as OIO has already been quick to point out), usually the fuel tanks, and other side issues like the effectiveness of PNZR pintle guns - anything, it would seem, to make things easier for the Quickfix™ squadron, and more difficult for everyone else. Pilot comes in and hits the fuel? Player choice of tactics, to paraphrase Mr. Toad from an earlier thread. But No! No! No! - we can't have that. Even though the field is defended by mannable ack, it's beneath Mr. Quickfix's sense of dignity to make use of it. So instead, up goes a call for the "Hardness" to be increased, which is another way of saying that fuel porkage is to be programmed out of the game as a player tactic.

To go back to the quote "The fight's the thing; everything else is just tripe", am I alone in noticing that this is not presented as a subjective analysis, but as a statement of fact? It is of course BS. Thousands of players in AH (yes, thousands!) are interested to play for the strategic elements of the game, and territory capture. I do goon/M3 troop landings myself, but at least 500 guys have done more/better than I have this tour, which has been two successful captures, one by goon, the other by M3.

More CVs? I'll like that - have always liked carrier ops. But fewer vehicle fields? Seems to me that the demands of Mr. Quickfix™ are going to force the would-be tank battlers to play HIS way. Mr. Quickfix™ does not see the need for vehicle bases, so why should anyone else? Answer: Get rid of them, and the fields will be airfields instead - more sop to Mr. Quickfix™.

From the earliest days of the Pizza Map, I wondered why there needs to be so many fields for each side of the map. I have often lamented the fact that owing to the Bardar, stealth missions are effectively ruled out. Even if you were to press forward to a remote field in a NOE raid, the map would be flashing minutes before your arrival, and the LA7 interception committee would be waiting for you at 5K by the time you got there. So the only realistic fights/battles are going to be where one country's frontier is adjacent to the frontier of another country - the front line. All the other fields are wasted, or at least the vast majority of them are.

I am sick to death of the machinations of the Mr. Quickfixes of this game that take it further, and further, and further along the road towards arcade gameplay. Mr. Quickfix™ cleverly disguises his proposed changes as "creating more player choices"... but if you look more closely, you'll see that this is in fact a smokescreen to hide what's really happening - creating an arena in the image of Mr. Quickfix™, and to hell with everyone else.

Wake up, guys! Your game is under threat! Fariz has already said it in the paragraph I quoted above. Mr. Quickfix™ does not want your style of gameplay for himself, but he doesn't want YOU to have it either.

Offline NoBaddy

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2003, 07:25:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I know someone's going to answer with the perverbial '2 Weeks' but is the upgraded Trinity map going to be available to play on soon (within a couple of months) or is it for the AH2 Classic Arena when it goes into beta sometime this fall?


Ack-Ack


Welp, I intended to infer the difficulty I am having finding time to work on it in my initial post (porkchops and alligators :)). Believe it or not, this is not my job. I do have a R/L job and it has been Hell the last 5 or 6 weeks. Add to that, I am a single parent with a 11 year old son. He has homework to be checked, Boy Scout meetings we have to attend and is currently a slugging outfielder on his Little League team. My plate is rather full, to say the least. The point is, it will be finished when I get time to finish it. When it is finished, I will bug Dale to release it asap. Sorry, it's the best I can do.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2003, 08:02:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
... it will be finished when I get time to finish it. When it is finished, I will bug Dale to release it asap. Sorry, it's the best I can do.



I totally understand and am looking forward to be able to fly around on the upgraded Trinity map when it's eventually released.  Also would like to say Thanks for doing this in the first place.


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Offline lazs2

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2003, 08:07:39 AM »
beetle... how does having more cv's and closer fields affect strat players?  I think you are just afraid that, given a viable choice, people would rather have air combat than battle buildings...  You are afraid that when they are not forced to play with you.... they won't.   Nevermind that it limits your choices not a whit.  

As for fuel... I dont care what the fuel hardness is but the field capture and talent required to kill it should be balanced with it's vulnerability... to have one person capable of shutting down, making useless, an entire field... using absolutely not talent... is bad gameplay and badly done... hide the fuel ... cammo all over the map... I dont care... put it in the hangers so that you have to kill all the hangers to bring it down to say 50%... lot's of ways to do it... resuply and hardness are just simple fixes for a gamey feature.

but why do you even care?  the new "missun arena" will be out soon and you and your ilk can hide from each other and sneak around all nite.
lazs

Offline OIO

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2003, 08:18:59 AM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oh, and Nobaddy, would it be possible to get a "blank" trinity map terrain for the editor? I mean, without the bases or strat targets on it?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Most things are possible...whatcha got in mind?"

I just want to be able to use the terrain and add the strat and fields in myself. Also I need to know if the terrain editor can assign specific planes to specific fields (as you can see im 100% new at using the editor hehe).

My "vision" is to make a map that is moved by ground forces as the primary capture units with air units taking care of strat and support of ground offensive as well as maintaining air superiority.

Offline Zippatuh

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2003, 08:44:34 AM »
Thanks NB.

For us bloated squad arcade guys this is great.



Beetle, do you have a hobby other than AH and/or the BBS?  Or at least a significant man or woman that gives you that special feeling?  I’m thinking your crush on the 13th and the BK’s, specifically Toad and laz is a bit disturbing.

Help is out there and only a phone call away!

Offline Toad

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2003, 09:17:51 AM »
My, my, my, my, MY!

Beet1e, you remind me of the Soviet Propaganda machine. :D

A lovely diatribe, castigating those that don't play AH the way YOU would like them to, essentially denying the right of anyone that doesn't play like you to  even comment on AH gameplay, inferring that they shouldn't be allowed to voice THEIR opinions when it conflicts with YOURS and, lastly, putting out an incorrect and biased view of the effect of their suggestions.


A quick rebuttal to only some of the pure tripe you posted.

The "fight is the thing". Otherwise, you might as well go play Flight Simulator 2000 or something. Want detailed approaches and landings? FS200. Guns going off in air combat? AH. The fight's the thing. :D

Forcing others to play "my way"? LOL! Look chum, AH started out as a pure fighter arena. As we've progressed more and more gamey strat issues have been added.

Now get this........ THAT'S FINE BY ME AS LONG AS I CAN STILL FLY ACM, WHILE OTHERS ARE PLAYING THEIR "STRAT" WAY.

From my POV, the fun in AH has slowly eroded as all this extraneous garbage has been added to the original, fun Fighter Combat MAIN ARENA.

But NOTHING I do in the MA forces people to play "my way".  Au contraire! Nothing I do limits anyone else's options in ANY WAY, except maybe I occasionally limit some folks option to return to base in the aircraft they are presently flying. :D

Now, OTOH, YOU base your  ENTIRE game around limiting other player's options and you come here to the BBS attempting to gain gameplay concessions from HTC to limit other players' options... to make them play YOUR way... to an even greater degree.

Let's look at some of your tearful complaints about my suggestions:

Pintle gun. My contention is that it is incorrectly modeled with respect to damage ability. It's a .30 rifle caliber single MG that can knock pieces off an aircraft at 800 yards with a short burst. OTOH, 8 rifle caliber MB's on a Hurricane 1 have a deal of trouble achieving that feat. Hmm... 1 .30 rifle caliber MG on a tank much more damaging than 8 rifle caliber MG's on a Hurri.

Now, let's look at your "spin":

Quote
side issues like the effectiveness of PNZR pintle guns - anything, it would seem, to make things easier for the Quickfix™ squadron, and more difficult for everyone else


Nice try. I said I think the guns are incorrectly modeled and I'm willing to test that out on film.  How does correctly modeling a gun make anything easier or more difficult for ANYONE? Or are you saying correct modeling of MG's is unimportant in AH?

Now to airfields/vh fields. Has it escaped your notice that EVERY airfield has a Vehicle Hangar? That is to say, at an airfield, EVERY PLAYER has a choice of taking either a GV or an airplane. Lots of choices right?

It can't have escaped your notice that NO pure Vehicle Field has an airplane hangar? EVERY PLAYER can only take a GV from a Vehicle Field. Less choices, right?

Now, which one of those, the airfield or the vehicle field, most limits player choice?

Quote
But fewer vehicle fields? Seems to me that the demands of Mr. Quickfix™ are going to force the would-be tank battlers to play HIS way.


Let's examine THIS piece of tripe. Any V-field changed to an A-field will STILL have a vehicle hangar with, I assume, the same spawn points as the old pure V-field. It seems that all the "tank battler action" that was available before will STILL be available. How is that limiting choice?

In fact, now there will be MORE action available... air as well as ground... resulting in more choice for more people. To top it off, there's still "Tank Town" in the middle of the map, the purest GV area installed in any AH map so far. Plenty of choice for "tank battlers".  So again, your comment is just vituperative, inflammatory spin.

If you review the original Trinity thread, I doubt you'll find me saying much about hardness. My point, and one which NB, Trinity's "father" agree with wholeheartedly, is that there is a huge imbalance in the effort needed to degrade fuel when compared with the effort needed to upgrade fuel. One player can quickly take fuel down to 25% in one sortie and it takes 7 or 10 or whatever players to bring it back up to just 50%. Imbalance, see?

Beyond that, damaging fuel has an unbalanced effect on the planeset. It limits choice of Early War planes far more than choice of Late War planes. Limits choice, see? 25% in a FM2 is far less playing time than 25% in a P-51D. Unbalanced. Choice limiting.

You never responded when I asked you how you would view a "strat" system such as this:

Would you be just as sanguine if when one FH went down, all 1943 introduction planes and later were suddenly removed from the selection list?

If when two hangars were down, nothing introduced after 1942 was available?

The planeset should be equally available and equally useable by all the players. More choice, see?

That would give knocking out hangars an effect similar to degrading fuel. I haven't heard you comment on this concept. Please do. :D


Anyway, I think it's pretty clear to anyone that reads all of these threads that YOU are the guy hellbent on limiting other players choices. Nothing I've proposed limits anyone's choice. Correct modeling of a gun limits choice? More fields capable of launching either GV or aircraft limits choice? Making the effort to degrade or upgrade fuel take a similar amount of player effort limits choice?

:D  Keep on talking. You're painting your self-portrait very well, Generalissimo!


Anyway, it's all moot. HT is creating an arena JUST FOR YOU and guys like you, as Laz pointed out.

I think you're going to get all your fondest wishes granted in the new super duper strat filled mission arena! You'll be playing with other Generalissimo's that agree completely with your gameplay concepts and you can all laugh an point at us stupidheads just flying ACM back in the baby pool MA, while you great warriors swim with sharks. I bet you'll even be able to make important suggestions to control how other folks play in your very own special forum, just like the CT forum!


Like I said, I think everyone wins in this deal!

Enjoy!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thunder

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Update on the Trinity update...
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2003, 10:01:13 AM »
Beet1e... I remember you... you are that guy that always stirs up trouble aren't you :)

Please accept this well earned award and go back to sleep! :p

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Offline ATC

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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2003, 11:15:23 AM »
Good Job NB  

ATC


Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2003, 12:06:23 PM »
"I have often lamented the fact that owing to the Bardar, stealth missions are effectively ruled out. Even if you were to press forward to a remote field in a NOE raid, the map would be flashing minutes before your arrival, and the LA7 interception committee would be waiting for you at 5K by the time you got there.

beet1e .. you are wrong on this point.

A well disciplined and planned NOE raid with the right aircraft will capture a base 9 out of 10 times. The base does not start flashing until an aircraft pierces the radar circle. Even the slowest planes that we have in NOE raids (300 mph) will arrive at the base far earlier than 2 minutes after breaking the radar circle.


NB ... thanks for all your efforts ... past, present, and future.

Priorities are tantamount for a single parent, and that 11 yr old boy is #1. Salute to you !!!
SlapShot - Blue Knights

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