Author Topic: Furballer v. Strat  (Read 1640 times)

Offline lazs2

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Furballer v. Strat
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2003, 02:17:48 PM »
rut... I don't think we are that far off in agreeing (was that witty enough?).   You abhor the suicide dweebs.   I am not calling you a liar but point out thatmost of todays wars are won by them or at least... the heavy lifting is done by them.   You seem to be admitting this by saying that real fluff and jabo work and real field capture is now pointless.  I agree with you... I think anyone who doesn't see how much they have ruined the game (suicide building battlers) is probly kidding themselves.

but... I didn't just sit back..  I was the person who suggested perking bombs over 100lbs for jabo... I suggested revetments instead of fighter hangers ... I suggested 50% or more fuel till all the buildings were down (what, they don't have fuel in them hangers?).

It's a complex problem... HT hisself was perplexed by it and recognized the problem... He suggested some sort of delay for bombs that they didn't damage till it was apparent the suicider had survived...

ccvi... don't worry about it... most of us are laughing at the strat guys on their hamster wheel of mediocrity.

OIO... maybe you will make a map that suits everyone but...

I doubt it... first off... I don't think you know what a furball is.  I think that is the problem with all the guys making maps except the developer..  admittedly... Us furballers are a lazy lot... not prone to doing the work needed to make a map but you strat guys are pretty self serving when it comes to map design.  wheather by choice or ignorance I couldn't, and wouldn't say.
lazs

Offline Rutilant

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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2003, 02:42:32 PM »
Lazs, I appologize for seeming(being) so hostile in that post, just so used to seeing people being flamed for reasonable suggestions or observations i had my defense up..

Suicide dweebs do have the biggest effect (WAY too big) and that's something I'de rather not see. I hate climbing to 15k just too see there's only a fuel bunker left, it makes me... it makes me drop ord on some dirt, drop to 5k just to milk the buff 'interceptors'. Quite frustrating.

Just an off topic observation.. I got bored with the steamrolling so bombed an intact field's town. Jamusta (my squaddie) tagged along in a YakU and kept the one or two people that upped busy while i RTBed, he brought em back.. a 109G10 and a Zeke.. So, i grabbed my Hurri, met em out of the ack, and had quite a bit of fun that lasted till the reset and was free of any dweebery, and was rather evenly matched.

Fun :)

(See? I'm much nicer with my defenses off :D )

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2003, 05:17:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

Face it "strat" guys... you are nothing without the worst element  in the game... without the sacrafice of the suicide building battlers and suicide fluffs who do all the heavy lifting for your so called "strat"... you would be dong nothing except trying to belittle a bunch of guys into steamrollering a undefended or lightly defended field..

That is why any suggestion to negate the overbalanced effect they have is met with such resistance by the "strat" guys... you pretend to abhor the suicide dweebs but you, in fact, depend on them for your gameplay...  before the huge influx of low or no talent newbie suicide boyz... you had no real momentum

The only thing furballers depend on is a place for it to happen.
lazs



....ya, more helpful insight from Laz :rolleyes:
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2003, 03:53:54 AM »
I enjoy field capture, and the battles/fights that arise out of such initiatives - both offensive and defensive. It is clear that Lazs does not like the suicide pork & auger, and neither do I. That's why I eagerly await AH2, which will provide a straightforward answer to the problem. But to try to stop suicide P&A in an arena designed for furballing is anything but straightforward, and that's why we see all these calls to "experiment" with object "hardness", and apply other "nudges". I like the thought of that even less than the fragfest we have now. I've seen such game tweaking applied in WB and believe me, it's the road to disaster, and was a key reason for my departure from that game.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2003, 08:22:06 AM »
HT doesn't do the wheel-0-settings thing like WB..  whatever they change will be announced and will be left in place for a very long time.   All hardness settings are suspect and have some allowance for gameplay except.... Air combat.  

GV's have unkillable guys standing out in the open blasting away with a .30 cal mg... bombs have no blast radius..  buildings are either all up or all down.  Fluffs have a crew off 30 replaced by a single player who can levitate out of his plane for a gods eye view of the action.

All the strat elements are gamey and phony.   Most realize this.  Some live with it... some embrace it. and some... simply have as little to do with it as possible.

perking bombs over 100 lbs for jabo would not effect hardness settings.
lazs

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2003, 09:01:27 AM »
lazs ...

Bombs DO have a blast radius ... I have seen other GVs blow up from bombs hitting in close proximity to the GV.

Perking bombs would ruin the game for more people than the current Pork & Auger impact.

Besides, what pool would the perks come from? Way too much programming and restructuring of the perk system to think that HT would even consider that solution anytime in the near future.

Let's think of solutions that can be implemented within the current structure of the game ... like in the other thread ...

Hardened fuel bunkers ...

More fuel bunkers ...

MORE mannable ack ...

blah ... blah ... blah ...
SlapShot - Blue Knights

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Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2003, 09:17:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
rut... I don't think we are that far off in agreeing (was that witty enough?).   You abhor the suicide dweebs.   I am not calling you a liar but point out thatmost of todays wars are won by them or at least... the heavy lifting is done by them.   You seem to be admitting this by saying that real fluff and jabo work and real field capture is now pointless.  I agree with you... I think anyone who doesn't see how much they have ruined the game (suicide building battlers) is probly kidding themselves.

but... I didn't just sit back..  I was the person who suggested perking bombs over 100lbs for jabo... I suggested revetments instead of fighter hangers ... I suggested 50% or more fuel till all the buildings were down (what, they don't have fuel in them hangers?).

It's a complex problem... HT hisself was perplexed by it and recognized the problem... He suggested some sort of delay for bombs that they didn't damage till it was apparent the suicider had survived...

 


I can certainly agreee with the suicide jabo man is wrecking the game.  I have raised th point before, a group of 20 p51's w eggs and rockets , coming into a base at 15k is undefensable 99% of the time.  It is foolish to try to up and intercept them unless u get ample warning that they are coming.  Whcih is nearly impossible.
  I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal.  This goes for bombers also.  This would immedialty make the suicide man obselete, and would be interesting to see what direction the game would take.  
  Game concessions are necessary, but a country would not send a squadron of fighters to a probable death if they had a limited number of them.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2003, 09:52:59 AM »
"I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal."

Do you have any idea what effort coding that would be, nevermind the caching of data involved.

500+ people having each sortie data cached until the sortie ended ... your talkin BIG iron here and I don't think that HTC will be putting any down-payments for that type of hardware anytime soon.

Its so easy to think of ideas and solutions, but you also have to think of the coding effort and hardware that would be involved to bring it to reality.
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Offline Nwbie

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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2003, 10:11:48 AM »
Furballing is fun
Jabo runs are fun if you make it through the ack
I suck at bomb runs over 500 feet :) can't figure out the dammmm bombsight thingy, usually eggs hit about 600 mile from where I thght they were gonna go lol
GV' ng is fun as long as no one is shooting back at me, I must have a large red target on my tank as I drive cuz I always die ,
But, I gotta admit, the most fun I had in a long time was a couple nights ago when I upped a osti at V6 for defense and there were about 20 peeps in gv's defending
We were all laffing our arses off as typhs, 17's, lanc's ponies, p-38's were innin and the sky looked like 100 guns were firing at em,
was a different nite for me, as I rarely gv, but was fun in a different way for me.
My point is, this game allows you to find your fun in many ways, and everyone has the option to do as they please...

NwBie
Skuzzy-- "Facts are slowly becoming irrelevant in favor of the nutjob."

Offline OIO

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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2003, 11:12:36 AM »
Lazs, here's the way I see the map design when I said "I think that the biggest issue with furball vs strat is the map layouts. Right now all maps in the MA actively encourage, if not outright demand, furballing as the means to capture fields."

First some definitions so we dont get confused:

Furball: Clouds of planes engaged in shooting each other down in area less than 1/4th of a sector. Usually over or near or in between fields, their purpose is to shoot down other planes as primary objective, field capture or field porking is 2nd in their list..which means that once they manage to furball OVER the field and kill the acks, they set up a vulch.

The Furball is easily identified by seeing masses of green and red icons of all plane types (vast majority being spits, n1ks and la7's) engaged in a free for all melee at all altitudes (although most of them are below 10k). Its the lone wolf/quake arena gameplay: take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care.

Strat: Fighters and Bombers that fly with specific purpose of destroying infrastructure (which includes airfields) that will help "win" the map. Aerial dogfighting is 2nd in their list (fighters being either jabo or escorts).

The strat is easily identified as seeing large amounts of red cons of the same type (for the most part, aka b17s with P51 escorts) that are flying towards a field or factory, its the "historically oriented" gameplay: take off with others in group, each plane type with a specific duty, fly to target, accomplish mission (bomb or escort), return home.

Please note the suicide junkies infect both types of play.

Now, the field layout and map layout is made so that furballing is the de-facto means to move the map, not strat.

All MA maps now have fields with less than a sector apart, which unavoidably result in furballs between them, and its not until 1 side "pushes" the other side over a field and vulch it that the furball ends.. but WAIT! The side that is getting vulched has one or MORE fields less than a sector away! So it doesnt matter if that field is captured or not, theres alway another furball coming up.

Now, the strat players oth, are presented with a HUGE list of "targets". Mostly fields less than 1 sector apart. And unavoidably, that fact alone makes "strategic" destruction or porking of airfields to be rather useless since it wont hamper the other side's ability to fight since by the time the strat players bomb and RTB, whatever they destroyed is BACK UP (especially true in HQ/factories).

And thus, it has become an unspoken alliance between strat and furballers: strat does most of the field porking and keeps fuel down in surrounding fields so enemy fighters dont last long IN A FURBALL, and the furballers take care of swarming the field and keeping the enemy down so another strat player or good samaritan flies a goon in. But for all practical purposes, the strat players affect the map very little since the furballers themselves, given enough time (say, an hour furballing over a field), will eventually pork the field and grow tired of flying in the same place and take up goons and capture it. Compared to the, say, 15 minutes it takes a couple of strat players porking the field and town while furballers furball over it, and then fly a goon in.

Now, to give you an idea of what I think a "balanced" map layout is in IMO; the version of trinity im working on has LARGE airfields spread over 4 sectors apart from each other, and theres lots of vehicle fields in between. This map is to be moved by ground forces supported/protected by aircraft, and eventually airfields themselves will come under fire by ground forces and their supporting aircraft.

The Vbases will launch vehicles as well as BOMBER/ATTACKER aircraft (Il2,Stuka,A20,Boston) and will also launch fighters that have little or no ground attack capability to provide air umbrella support for the ground units & bomber/attacker craft (aka La5, Macchi's, Ki61, 109e/f/g2, 190a5, P40s, 110c4, spit1/hurri1, f4u1, yak9u,zeroe's).

The large aifields will launch all planes, making them vital targets for strat-bombing, it makes factories and supply trains be even more vital to attack since there's so few airfields they resupply (every cargo counts), vbases will be under attack from both ground and air..and air attacks come from the vbases themselves (ground monkeys or furball monkeys) and from the large airfields (launching fighter/attackers like p38s and bombers to help move the front line faster).

This kind of map setup, I believe, will allow the furballers to do what they love: furball from the vfields, it even allows for the vehicle lovers to sally forth in their armed buggies, and the strat players finally get the chance to make an impact on the resources of the game and on moving/defending the front line.

And the suicide dweebs? Hah! I dont think flying 6 sectors or more to suicide will be appealing... not to mention that suiciding on planes taken out of Vbases will be an excercise in frustration thanks to the flaktanks :D :D

Carriers will also have their little wars and D-day beach invasions (towns at "running" distance of troops when dropped at the beach from LVTs... imagine the fun of vbases defending beachside property by having to mow down the hordes of running grunts :D :D )

Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2003, 11:21:53 AM »
Sounds like a great layout OIO.

One thing I did not understand.

The V-bases, will launch aircraft with limited or no ground attack capability. Would'nt it make sense to do the opposite, as these A/C would be the front line A/C for providing air support for the ground toops, while the umbrella would come from another field consisting of Air superiority A/C?

Just a query.

Thanks for your efforts.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2003, 11:29:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
"I think if the damage the attacker has done was undone as soon as he died or bailed or ditched, it would balance things out a great deal."

Do you have any idea what effort coding that would be, nevermind the caching of data involved.

500+ people having each sortie data cached until the sortie ended ... your talkin BIG iron here and I don't think that HTC will be putting any down-payments for that type of hardware anytime soon.

Its so easy to think of ideas and solutions, but you also have to think of the coding effort and hardware that would be involved to bring it to reality.


I cant argue here, I will assume your a technician, and I know I am not.  But isnt everybodys data cached already?  From a simpletons mind, it would seem, if HTC were to try to implement this, that it would just be a matter of reducing the regen time for the affected strat.  Since you get perk pionts based on the damage you do, I have to assume that this data is 'cached' anyway, to compute the points awarded.  As a matter of fact, if a guy lands successfully, there would be no change at all.  
  It may be tedious to try to assign each individual strat changing regen values, but as long as it affected the particular fiedl, it really wouldnt matter.  
  But thats really our job as plyers to throw up goofy ideas and let the guys who do the keypunching figure out if and how and when.
  I myself am all for a much simpler solution, to make the auto ack at an airbase just as vicious as a fleets auto ack.  That way, mre times than not,he is killed before he can cause any damage at all.

Offline OIO

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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2003, 11:36:50 AM »
Neg muck, if I allowed fighter-attackers to launch from vbases the ground vehicles will have very little chance. If you notice, the planes in the vbase list have little or no cannons and no rockets or big bombs. Neither could I include hispano or quad-cannon or heavy caliber cannon planes (spit, tiffie, n1k,40mm hurri,109's with 30mm) because they would just become GV-strafers..which would really hurt the ground players and provide nothing but snapshot-killing sprayfests.

OTH, if the cannon planes had to fly 1 sector to support their frontline, itd make them a bit less likely to go after ground vehicles..especially with the loads of m16s and flaks.

In essence, only the vbase aircraft dont get penalized for dying from the groundfire since they can re-up and furball again.

Please note that Vbases launch FIGHTERS with little or no ground attack capability, but they also launch Bomber-Attackers (IL2, Stuka, A20) which are quite capable of making a mess of gv's..

Offline Apache

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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2003, 11:45:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
Lazs, here's the way I see the map design when I said "I think that the biggest issue with furball vs strat is the map layouts. Right now all maps in the MA actively encourage, if not outright demand, furballing as the means to capture fields."

First some definitions so we dont get confused:

Furball: Clouds of planes engaged in shooting each other down in area less than 1/4th of a sector. Usually over or near or in between fields, their purpose is to shoot down other planes as primary objective, field capture or field porking is 2nd in their list..which means that once they manage to furball OVER the field and kill the acks, they set up a vulch.

The Furball is easily identified by seeing masses of green and red icons of all plane types (vast majority being spits, n1ks and la7's) engaged in a free for all melee at all altitudes (although most of them are below 10k). Its the lone wolf/quake arena gameplay: take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care.

Strat: Fighters and Bombers that fly with specific purpose of destroying infrastructure (which includes airfields) that will help "win" the map. Aerial dogfighting is 2nd in their list (fighters being either jabo or escorts).

The strat is easily identified as seeing large amounts of red cons of the same type (for the most part, aka b17s with P51 escorts) that are flying towards a field or factory, its the "historically oriented" gameplay: take off with others in group, each plane type with a specific duty, fly to target, accomplish mission (bomb or escort), return home.

Please note the suicide junkies infect both types of play.

Now, the field layout and map layout is made so that furballing is the de-facto means to move the map, not strat.

All MA maps now have fields with less than a sector apart, which unavoidably result in furballs between them, and its not until 1 side "pushes" the other side over a field and vulch it that the furball ends.. but WAIT! The side that is getting vulched has one or MORE fields less than a sector away! So it doesnt matter if that field is captured or not, theres alway another furball coming up.

Now, the strat players oth, are presented with a HUGE list of "targets". Mostly fields less than 1 sector apart. And unavoidably, that fact alone makes "strategic" destruction or porking of airfields to be rather useless since it wont hamper the other side's ability to fight since by the time the strat players bomb and RTB, whatever they destroyed is BACK UP (especially true in HQ/factories).

And thus, it has become an unspoken alliance between strat and furballers: strat does most of the field porking and keeps fuel down in surrounding fields so enemy fighters dont last long IN A FURBALL, and the furballers take care of swarming the field and keeping the enemy down so another strat player or good samaritan flies a goon in. But for all practical purposes, the strat players affect the map very little since the furballers themselves, given enough time (say, an hour furballing over a field), will eventually pork the field and grow tired of flying in the same place and take up goons and capture it. Compared to the, say, 15 minutes it takes a couple of strat players porking the field and town while furballers furball over it, and then fly a goon in.

Now, to give you an idea of what I think a "balanced" map layout is in IMO; the version of trinity im working on has LARGE airfields spread over 4 sectors apart from each other, and theres lots of vehicle fields in between. This map is to be moved by ground forces supported/protected by aircraft, and eventually airfields themselves will come under fire by ground forces and their supporting aircraft.

The Vbases will launch vehicles as well as BOMBER/ATTACKER aircraft (Il2,Stuka,A20,Boston) and will also launch fighters that have little or no ground attack capability to provide air umbrella support for the ground units & bomber/attacker craft (aka La5, Macchi's, Ki61, 109e/f/g2, 190a5, P40s, 110c4, spit1/hurri1, f4u1, yak9u,zeroe's).

The large aifields will launch all planes, making them vital targets for strat-bombing, it makes factories and supply trains be even more vital to attack since there's so few airfields they resupply (every cargo counts), vbases will be under attack from both ground and air..and air attacks come from the vbases themselves (ground monkeys or furball monkeys) and from the large airfields (launching fighter/attackers like p38s and bombers to help move the front line faster).

This kind of map setup, I believe, will allow the furballers to do what they love: furball from the vfields, it even allows for the vehicle lovers to sally forth in their armed buggies, and the strat players finally get the chance to make an impact on the resources of the game and on moving/defending the front line.

And the suicide dweebs? Hah! I dont think flying 6 sectors or more to suicide will be appealing... not to mention that suiciding on planes taken out of Vbases will be an excercise in frustration thanks to the flaktanks :D :D

Carriers will also have their little wars and D-day beach invasions (towns at "running" distance of troops when dropped at the beach from LVTs... imagine the fun of vbases defending beachside property by having to mow down the hordes of running grunts :D :D )


Furballin' is no more "quake" like than stratin'.

To use your description, "take off, shoot others down before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care" and apply this one to strat, "take off, blow stuff up before they shoot you down, RTB if you can or care".

Offline OIO

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« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2003, 11:53:49 AM »
yes apache, but there is a vast difference between a bomber flying for 30 mins to bomb and then not caring to rtb (i know most dont..i dont), or fighter-attackers that fly for more than 1 sector (in my map at least) to drop ord and then go and furball (or if they not furball type people, rtb!) to those that up a fighter, climb for... 20 seconds, and start shooting. repeat ad nauseum.

I use the word "quake" because its an analogy to the furball mindset: shoot shoot shoot shoot kill , die, repeat, no other purpose to do this other than short-term fun and no commitment or interest in winning the map. You can hardly say that is the case for a buff driver or someone that flew more than 1 sector with ordenance and in danger of being intercepted by vbase planes or planes from airfields.

:)