Author Topic: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!  (Read 3076 times)

Offline AKWeav

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PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2003, 01:45:23 PM »
Quote
Calling the F4U-1C unused is balderdash.


Without going to the stats page, I can only rely on what I see in the MA. I can't remember the last time I encountered a Chog, but I see multiple La 7s every sortie.

Someone must be passing the word: "Weavs coming! Hide the Chogs, and grab the La 7s!"  ;)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #106 on: June 26, 2003, 06:33:02 PM »
On the contrary, about 1/3rd of every Hog I see, especially during CV-Land base battles, is a Chog. Yesterday I met and fought two Chogs at a same base.

 Stats will prove, that you see about as many Chogs as you encounter those occasional 109G-2s, Fw190A-5s, C.205s and etc.

 As I've mentioned, it is solely due to the fact that the top seven planes have more than 50% usage, that gives the impression that all other planes are not really used.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #107 on: June 26, 2003, 07:27:15 PM »
I completely disagree kweasa... you assume virtually every aspect of your theory.  When was the highest spike in usage for the P51, Spit 9, La-7 and N1K2?

Virtually every release except 1.04 (fixed e bug) saw a decrease in the big 4 listed above.  The N1K2 and Spit IX are seeing very stablized trending... as are all the other planes.  The only plane seeing a steady climb in usage is the La-7.  All of the other 3 have seen all time lows in usage at some point between tour 30 and now... with overall averages being lower for % usage.

Basically, usage of the top planes dips with the introduction of new planes.  The biggest spike in their usage came with the perking of the CHog.  Boredom seems to lead to increased usage of the top planes (the month after a new release) as the novelty of new planes wears off.

Perking the planes will just cause a huge spike with the next highly used planes in the top 10.  Their overall average % will go up and everybody posting here will pretend its for some other reason once again.

Perking the top plane caused a major jump with the next 4 in line.  What do you think is going to happen if you perk the top 4... other than the next 4 seeing a major jump in usage?

MiniD

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #108 on: June 26, 2003, 08:42:10 PM »
AKWeav,

You've killed two F4U-1Cs and been killed by them three times this Tour.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline AKWeav

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« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2003, 07:31:06 AM »
Karnak, I've killed 5 La 7s, and been killed 10 times by them this tour. So thats 5 Chogs vs 15 La 7s. Of course thats not counting the ones seen but not encountered, on both sides of the fence.

You might also have noticed that only two other items have a higher kill rate on me, the Ostwind, and the Spit 9. Been killed 15 times by each.

Rather fond of the Zeke and Mossie ain't cha?:D
« Last Edit: June 27, 2003, 07:48:47 AM by AKWeav »

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2003, 04:08:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWeav
Rather fond of the Zeke and Mossie ain't cha?:D


Yup.:D
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2003, 04:17:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terror
The "Big Four" have 39.8% of all A2A kills in the MA.  PERK the "Big Four".  See for yourself in the Tour40 Fighter Stats page HERE.  It takes the next THIRTEEN planes to equal the kill percentage of these four!!!!

Spitfire Mk IX  -- 6pts
LA7 -- 5pt
P51d -- 5pts
N1K -- 4pts

This will bring *some* variety into the MA!!!

Terror


Why is that in the name of variety, some try to limit what others can fly?  There is no valid reason why those planes should be perked.  None of those planes are a threat to game play balance and the excuse "most people fly them" isn't a valid reason, just a copt out.

For every 1 good attribute of those planes, there are at least two negative ones.


Ack-Ack
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2003, 08:07:54 PM »
Because variety and balance cannot be achieved without artificial intervention. The whole "natural equilibrium" concept is bullshi*. It has always been.

 Ofcourse, that'll probably lead to the discussions on whether if we really need "variety" and "balance" at all...

 Which in that aspect, AH does not need to grow any further anymore. Because anything that will not see use, is a mere waste of time and money for HTC.

 So, if we want merit for more planes and more features, and if you want to shoot down more different planes in many different types of battle conditions(which, I probably think has to do a lot with what people call "the fun factor"), we need variety and balance.

 Ofcourse, some people may not be bothered by fighting the same handful types of planes over and over and over and over again - their concept of fun lies with pure contest of ACM, or that's what they say at least.

 Which is kinda puzzling since they don't seem to like an idea of a air combat sim with just one or two planes modelled, but investing all the rest of the development time into developing realistic features and eye-candy. Apparently, according to their logic, it won't matter if they had only one plane, as long as they have someone to fight.

 But of course, in reality, people won't pay to fly an online game with one plane. So I guess the basic fundamentals for "fun" is pretty much set - lot of different planes to enjoy.

 ..

 So then, how will they enjoy those different planes when certain conditions of the game promote the use of only certain aircraft types?

 Yup, nobody forces them to use the "big four", but it's just a conclusion they reached on their own - they like fun in variety, but they also like the fun in killing stuff.

 They grow tired in fascinations to other wonderful different plane types when they get repeatedly shot down by the fastest and turniest of them all. In the fastest, you may not win, but at least you won't lose much. In the turniest, at least you get to kill one, before getting killed(but if it's too turny and too slow at the same time, they won't get a killing chance, so naturally they flock to the next turniest, but also averagely fast planes..).

 ..

 So basically that's the logic behind limiting choices. There can be a natural method of limiting overuse - via changing the very fundamental aspects of the MA so people naturally achieve variety, or artificially limiting choices through perks.

 The first method is preferred, and it is the most idealistic of all solutions but it takes time and money, and besides, the power's not in our hands to do so. We don't have the power to force the second method, but it provides easy temporary solution which can be experimented and fine tuned, so it provides comfort and satisfaction until the developers can really tune the more important issues.

Offline bockko

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« Reply #113 on: June 29, 2003, 09:13:45 PM »
in answer to the pure acm aspect, this game is at its peak when a good fight is in progress. I don't mean just a one on one, but a duel pitting the machine's best traits against another, one where you can see the brilliance of the other pilot in action, win or lose. There are some sticks in here that when encountered make the game worth playing. I have had recent fights that wrung me and my plane out. I can fight to the limit of my plane and my skill in any plane, but I don't want ride selection to become a major issue, it would be like a ladder game. Let the super planes of yesteryear roar to life, if only virtually. Let the acm begin, and lets see who's skill is triumphant. [hats off to recent pilots who showed great skill..some too much - ammo, some of the ak's, terror, silat, murdr, and ahem drex and his wingy second fiddle guy ;), who shot down me and my wingy, both being second fiddles ]

Offline Red Tail 444

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Re: Re: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2003, 10:47:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why is that in the name of variety, some try to limit what others can fly?  There is no valid reason why those planes should be perked.  None of those planes are a threat to game play balance and the excuse "most people fly them" isn't a valid reason, just a copt out.
Ack-Ack


For goodness sake, we're talking about 5 perks per ride. At best.

Offline Mini D

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PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2003, 11:10:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Because variety and balance cannot be achieved without artificial intervention. The whole "natural equilibrium" concept is bullshi*. It has always been.

 Ofcourse, that'll probably lead to the discussions on whether if we really need "variety" and "balance" at all...

 Which in that aspect, AH does not need to grow any further anymore. Because anything that will not see use, is a mere waste of time and money for HTC.
This is perhaps the biggest load of crap I've seen you write.  Pure and simple.

You just said that restriction and limitation will promote variety.  Really... you did.
Quote
So, if we want merit for more planes and more features, and if you want to shoot down more different planes in many different types of battle conditions(which, I probably think has to do a lot with what people call "the fun factor"), we need variety and balance.
There will never be balance.  never.  To argue based on it is simply being obtuse.

Of course, that leaves variety... but then again... we should restrict existing planes and not bother with adding more... right?

"If you don't use the planes we already have, we're just not going to make more."  Damn glad you're not in charge at HTC kweassa.

I checked your stats Kweassa...  Of 88 fighter kills, you've shot down 30 different fighters.  Did you expect that to be 70 different fighters?  I mean really?

Your deffinition of variety and blance is based on some kind of wouldn't it be wonderfull fantasy that could only be met by either killing variety or admitting balance is not really necessary.

40% of the arena chooses to fly the big 4.  But you are 9 times more likely to encounter an aircraft that isn't a p-51 than one that is.  9 times more likely to encounter an aircraft that isn't an La-7 than one that is.  9 times more likely to encounter an aircraft that isn't a Spit IX than one that is.  You are twice as likely to see an aircraft that isn't one of the above, than one that is.  The numbers show all of this kweassa.  Your hypothetical situations and one sided observations carry no weight.

MiniD

Offline Murdr

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Re: Re: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2003, 06:24:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why is that in the name of variety, some try to limit what others can fly?  There is no valid reason why those planes should be perked.  None of those planes are a threat to game play balance and the excuse "most people fly them" isn't a valid reason, just a copt out.

For every 1 good attribute of those planes, there are at least two negative ones.


Ack-Ack


I agree with you 75%.  One place the 4 add to game play balance is trying to hold back the pig pile.  When the primetime land grab starts.  There are always players who will take the task of close base defence, and its foolish in many situations not to take one of those planes.  Meanwhile the more seasoned pilots are upping their ride of choice at a rear field.  I can see where the absence of those planes would affect MA play in that respect.  Who wants to throw away perks, no matter how small, on repeated suicide defense sorties.
The only part I disagree about is the performance of the La7.  Its not its speed, the dora is almost as fast, the 51d is alot faster in some situations.  It is its acceleration.  To anyone in the "mix it up" crowd it is almost pointless to bother with E managment because the la7 negates it in almost all of the planes.  It can accelerate from 275 to top speed in about 12 seconds on the deck.  With that kind of acceleration it can start at cruise speed, pull a 360, and run down most of the plane set AC going by it in a straight line at its respective Wep speed in a matter of seconds.  Akak, I saw elsewhere where you replied to someone to learn to kill them.  That is not the point.  Come down in the dirt and play sometime and see how it can throw away E like its free (because it almost is) and beat your best efforts to keep the E you have.  Thats my opinion, Ive seen it do too many things that only perk planes are able to do.

Offline Don

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PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #117 on: July 02, 2003, 11:29:46 AM »
IMO, many are off base re: guaging the use and success of an a/c and using the info as an indicator of impact on the arena or effectiveness.
If a country or two gangs another country, and one of the gangers has a bunch of pilits who fly Lala's or Spittys etc., it doesn't seem to me to be that they are more effective; it just means there are a lot more of them.
The numbers issue has to be figured in somewhere, because it has a lot to do with advantage.
So any a/c in use in the MA has to be evaluated for effectiveness based upon conditions in the arena. If there was a month in the MA that saw mostly furballing, I am certain the numbers of popular a/c in use would change, or perhaps, if a study were done to see the effects of country changes (by squads that still do it); perhaps the numbers might change as well.
IMO, there is no way a spit fire or a Lala could impact an arena in significant ways; mostly due to pilit quality as well as utility of plane types.

Offline scJazz

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Kweassa's Proposal
« Reply #118 on: July 02, 2003, 05:22:42 PM »
For the record... I support Kweassa's proposal to perk very lightly the late war planes. Even though this means that 99% of my sorties will have to be in a different plane.
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Regarding the worries about the F6F becoming the new suicide JABO plane here is the following data that tends to support the idea that it will not.

1) F6F only has a 30 min fuel supply.
2) Auto climb speed is a miserable 155mph.
3) Time to climb to 20,000' is 12 min 15 seconds with a full ORD and fuel load. 10,000' around 5 min. No WEP usage.
4) It isn't particularly fast or horribly manueverable.
5) Many dedicated JABO planes and light bombers perform better and carry heavier loads. They can climb faster and have greater fuel endurance.
6) Sortied against 2 Knight and 2 Bishop bases. The result 1 SpitIX, 1 N1K, and 2 LA7s. Didn't even get my ord off once, died all 4 times, managed to take the N1K with me, missed my target because I was rushed once.
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Regarding the worry over not perking the SpitIX. Don't worry about it much. The Spit is fairly self limiting. Low ammo and fuel loadouts prevent this plane from being to extreme. It is fairly fragile and easy to destroy as well. Of course this means we have to continue to deal with the Spit HO but hell someone will always go for a HO no matter what we do.
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Everyone please keep in mind that Kweassa is not proposing a permanent, sweeping change. He is asking that the system already in use be tweaked for a trial period. Perhaps he would get more support if instead of a month of trial it becomes instead just one week. Certainly HTC would see this as easier since it means changing just one map for the new perk values. If the change was inserted at the beginning of the month it would be easy to examine the differences caused in the stats. If it was done in the middle no great issue it can still be figured out.
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Now let us consider why the change is even being proposed.

It certainly appears that the late war planes are unbalancing. Yesterday, I was defending against a NOE raid. The planes... SpitIXs used as air-superiority fighters and P51s being used as the Jabos. That is right Pony's flying heavy on the deck!?!?! My sorties today in the Hellcat resulted in the predicted N1K, Spit, La7 response. How many times have I been attacked by these planes after a Jabo strike; far, far more than is reasonable. Why are the late war planes unbalancing? Simple, by the end of the war every country had refined their aircraft designs to make them the best they could be. All of these late model planes are superior to the previous models. What we are seeing in the MA is everyone leaning toward the best possible plane. The effect is exactly the same as the desire to acquire the "+20 vorpal bunwhacker" in UO, Everquest, etc. What has been seen in those games however is that since it is the best weapon everyone wants one and after a stunningly short period of time everyone has one. Anyone who doesn't have one can not compete against other players. After awhile when the critters are upgraded to deal with the threat of this weapon people without can't compete against the critters either. The late war planes are the "+20 vorpal bunwhackers" of this game.
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Awhile ago I was stunned to see a P40 come up in response to a JABO run in my P38 I blasted it out of the sky while still loaded down with bombs with a shot from it's 10 oc and went on with my run. No great surprise the pilot came back up in a LA7 and zapped me on my egress. Why relate this story? Well because first of all I had forgotten that P40s were even in the game. Second, because I managed a 6 shot while still loaded with ord. Third, because right after that I got blasted by a LA7. Fourth, because this pilot relented to grabbing a LA7 because he knew that it was his only real option.
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OK, the cons to this proposal. I have to relearn defensive and offensive strategies for dealing with planes. At this point most of the time I'm engaged with something besides the top 4 I'm thinking in terms of which of the top 4 this particular plane is like.

Next it means that I'll actually start spending my perk points for real instead of hoarding them.

If this proposal is implemented I'll also have to sift through whining by those pilots who don't even know other planes exist. Naturally, these pilots have chosen these planes because they are the best and they worry about having to fly something that is not the best. Of course they miss the point that everyone else will stop flying the uber planes as well.

Last but not least it could mean an end to the "lemming horde" attacks by the Bishops in the Eastern Standard morning flying Typhs. Instead of 15 to 20 Typhs immolating a base I could be facing 45 to 60 B17s in close formation. 50 cals coming out of the sky like rain. So many that the sky is darkened. Since my favorite bomber interceptor the 190D9 would also be off the list I'd have to use... gasp... the 190A8 which was actually made to kill bombers.

Offline AVRO1

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PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2003, 06:14:38 AM »
scJazz I agree.

I like some early war planes but every time I up one I get killed outright by late war uber planes.
If thats not limiting my choice, I dont know what is.


I dont think they will try it though :(

But I'll cross my fingers. :)