Author Topic: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!  (Read 2806 times)

Offline Kweassa

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The Definitive Explanation on the "BIG FOUR" Phenomenon
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2003, 08:02:52 PM »
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Remove it and they go to another ride and the effect is unchanged.


 That is unless one removes(or rather, regulates - "removing" a plane via punitive perk costs, is not the same thing as lightly perking them for regulating them) a total 'section' of certain fighters above certain performance levels, so that the very style of gameplay may change - currently, as I see it, the "MA style" of combat is a result of certain planes being interdependant on each other.

 Planes being interdependant on each other is not a bad thing, but however, when those are the few plane types that are qualified for variety of purposes, being excellent in almost every category, the problem rises that practically other planes are rendered obsolete.


 .........

 La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, N1K2, Spit9 - these are all you need right now.

 For jabo and suppression, the P-51Ds and Typhoons carry out the task with more ordnance than most of the jabo planes, far better survivability than most bombers, and then they can also immediately switch to versatile fighter roles after ordnance is dropped.

 Mid to high alt fights, the P-51Ds used en masse takes the cake.

 Low alt engagements and suppression, the La-7 does it all.

 And the backbone of air power, the planes used in the 'grunt' role of air combat, chasing down slow planes or engaging other 'grunts', with high attrition levels - Spit9 and N1K2. These are planes that have exceptional maneuverability and yet, have decent speed(The N1K2 and Spit9 considered slow planes? Probably, to those who regularly use G-10s, D-9s, La-7s and P-51Ds, Typhoons. To the other planes below the "1944" levels, they are fast enough to be a big threat). Of those two, the former is a bit better suited for mid-high alt performance, and the latter can take on a jabo role if required, with four cannons of 900 rounds of ammo.

 ...

 The combination of the above mentioned 4~5 planes(which, also happen to be the 'big four', except the Typhoon(if one considers jabo purposes, the Typhoon probably joins the 'big four' in usage)), is the exact element of their overusage. The 'big four' are the 'big four', because combination of those four, is the key to winning the land-grab theme surrounding the MA.

 Then what about the superior numbers, alt-monkeying, running at the sight of co-E plane crap that's been going on? Simple.

 Since all of the countries are now using that "Big four Combo" regularly, apparently there's no advantage gained in the combination of other plane types - thus, the advantage is earned by sheer numbers.

 Since the "Big four combo" is so fediddlein' lethal, now, nobody, not even the vets, can be sure that they can meet a plane and win against it quickly in a major battle zone. As soon as you get that one guy, a La-7 comes on you co-alt, a P-51D drops down from high, and the Spits and N1K2s are waiting for you down low! :D Either you stick to that "SA" thingy like the ticket to heaven at Armageddon's Day, or you become a victim, and at the same time, the perpetrator of it.

 ..

 So, what about the other planes? The G-10 and the D-9?

 These are probably the only two planes which can vaguely substitute the above roles that the P-51D and the La-7 plays. However, the huge difference in armament(thanks to that long-range aspect of Hispanos and .50s) makes them crappy substitutes at best, not to mention they are both no match in the multi-purpose category(too limited in jabo role).

So, basically the G-10 plays as a substitue for the La-7, but due to their insane climb rates, limited ammo and sucky weaponery, and special 'gadgetry' such as the gun pods.. they play a more defensive version of it. The D-9 plays the mid-high alt substitute role for the P-51D. Thus, these become the only two planes really worthy of considering use in the MA environment.

 The P-38L, is a cross-breed between the P-51D and the Typhoon(in efficiency as the MA fighter) - heavier jabo loads, limited "running" capability, but better conventional dogfight capability. These show up  when either they are suicidal, or the target field is already suppressed.

 ...

 So seriously, will they go for another ride when the "big four" is perked? Yes, with simular results. The 'accident' in the MA, where Spits couldn't take off in Bugisles, showed that the Spits move on to N1K2s. People will move to the crappier substitue versions of their former La-7s and P-51Ds, but still, the results won't be too different.

 But when the entire "section" of late war planes are perked?

 Some say diversity cannot be reached by perking or regulating. But they are wrong.

 The perking of the F4U-1C, is a testament to that. The F4U-1C is a four Hispano armed plane - which adds a vast advantage to its A2A capabilities, which carries 6 rockets and 2000lbs ordnance, can take off from a carrier, and also is one of the fastest planes on deck(slow acceleration and limited WEP, but the F4U-1D and the F4U-1C, is faster than the Bf109G-10).

 It was a "one-plane-do-all" fighter.

 When it was perked, what happened? Since no other plane has that kind of capabilities, it's role in the MA is now carried out by three different planes - P-51D, La-7, and the Typhoon! Also, in carrier ops, it's role is split into three by the F4U-1D for jabo, and the F6F-5 and the Seafire for pure A2A suppression. In short, the F4U-1C alone, was doing the job of 6 different fighters in the MA.

 With the perk costs, increased risk, and added correct weight, it is now 6 different planes that carry the job that once, the F4U-1C did alone.

 That explains why we'll never see a single plane doing 20% of all the kills in the MA ever! And that also means that 20% is now not the standard on which 'overusage' should be judged upon. Relative monoploy is what should be considered.

 8 points for the F4U-1C gave way to 6 different fighter types in the MA. Therefore, perking some of the "late war fighter" section, should also be able to give way to other fighters by splitting the role which once one fighter could do alone by itself.

 Perks do increase diversity.

 Regulating the total section of late war fighters, which is consisted of the "Big four" plus its substitutes, will force the overall planeset into an era prior to the emerging of the "Super planes", where realtive performance margins are better balanced. Not to mention that also, the roles formerly carried out by them(which was once carried by the F4U-1C alone) will also split into other plane types - jabo role to the dedicated jabo planes, fighter role to the pure fighter planes.

Offline Terror

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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2003, 09:44:00 AM »
Great post Kweassa!!!

Terror

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2003, 10:10:51 AM »


No big deal in perking, marginally, the late 43-44 planeset, sans IJN rides. Consider it a "luxury Tax" for all you rich (in perks) people.

Gainsie

Offline Tilt

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Re: The Definitive Explanation on the "BIG FOUR" Phenomenon
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2003, 11:51:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

  Perks do increase diversity.

 


A well thought out arguement but it hinges totally upon this...........

You show the diversifying effect of perking the Chog.........but then assume that from this, that  perking always has a diversifying effect.........

However by perking the 4 (or 5 if you include the Typhoon) how can you be sure that the result would be diversification...... it may even be the opposite ......

The 4 could be replaced by "the new 2" or cod forbid "the new 1" its really a matter of choices and preferences.

I would not be surprised if the Typhoon became very popular should the 4 incur cost. And imagine if it and the P38 were flown by the horde so detested in this debate. Presumably we would then perk them as well.
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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2003, 02:37:40 PM »
I really need some variety.

AH has got to be one of the few games where you can just log in and use ALMOST any weapon you want without earning it.

Is this what society has come to? A bunch of spolied brats screaming, "I want it and I want it now!".

Does'nt anyone enjoy a challenge anymore? Don't you want to EARN your ride?

I can to AH from a game called Ultima online. When you started there, (It was a Dungeons and Dragons type deal) you were given a dagger, a cloak, 100 gold, and sent off on the world. You would get your butt kicked by a rabbit. NO EXAGGERATION!

So you worked at it. You earned your heavy crossbow or your Londsword, or your Valorite Armor. Sure you got owned ALOT, but it made the rewards that much sweeter. And when you were going into a high risk situation, you took your less expensive weapons. WHy? Because you earned them, and they were too important to you to lose.

Same thing can apply here. Perk ALL planes, except for the very bottom of the barrel. Let the Newbs (and me, I think I have 200 fighter perks in 2 years of flying) and the vets earn their rides.

There will still be plenty of planes to choose from.

And for those that argue that these 4 planes do no present that much of an advantage, why were they made? Because they were advancements over their Predecessors, and obviously were successful. If they were not, the planes fighting WWII in 1945 would have been the same ones fighting in 1939.

Like many, I'm just looking for diversity. I sighed in exhaustion the other night when I looked behind me and all I can see was a conga line of 5 LA-7's chasing my lone F6F.

I respect the man that kills me in the c202.

TOD last week..I got 4 kills ( A miracle ) in a C205 vs. P-40's and Spit Vs. I had a blast flying a new plane.

Would I fly it in the main? Not unless I just want to give away kills. I simply cannot compete in a 205, but would happily fly it if everyone had the same handicap, ie an arena not composed entirely of late war rides.

We need some diversity. We need a challenge. We need something to strive for in this game that will make earning that much more rewarding.

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2003, 04:21:50 PM »
LMAO, this is off topic, bbut related to U.O.

One of my former AW squaddies, who everyone hated...was complaining about U.O. he was in a fight with other guys against this monster, and he logged in and helped the party attack it. but then they all backed off, let him get killed, then stole all his stuff...

ROFL...friggin hilarious...I recorded the whole damn story and still laugh my arse off...but I guess you had to be there :(

Gainsie

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2003, 05:43:58 PM »
You guys are forgetting the most feared nightmare for a La7, Spit or Niki: Yak9U.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2003, 06:54:32 PM »
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However by perking the 4 (or 5 if you include the Typhoon) how can you be sure that the result would be diversification...... it may even be the opposite ......



 You're totally correct on that.

 That's why I advocate a perk agenda as described in the post in my link. 4~5 planes won't cut it. Perking the entire "section" of fighters from about 1944 onwards, is what I have envisioned.

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2003, 07:04:29 PM »
IMO, only a dynamic perk system based on usage has sense. So, the cost of every plane is being recalculated hourly based on usage, that is, take offs. And the perk value keeps there for two hours, independently of the usage. This perk system may assign between 1 and 10 perks to the planes based on usage plus the static perk cost based on country population.

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2003, 07:10:59 PM »
Muckmaw youre absolutely right. Ive said the same thing myself before.

Its the carrot and the stick. Basically the fundamental principle behind games of all sorts for hundreds of years.

Show the players the carrots make em work to get the carrot then start all over again with a bigger carrot. :)

Its the basis of video games and IT WORKS!!!.

Take a game like a first person shooter. You play it more and more because you want that next weapon or to see the next level.Remember Half-Life??? .Years ago you flew sims to get the later planes or the next medal or promotion.Remember the classic their finest hour???. You collect your money or peices of the ancient symbol until you gained in level and got that +4 sword!!.Remember Dungeons and dragons??

what kind of games would they have been if everything was there at ther start requiring no effort? We would have played them for a few hours and got bored out of our minds with no real reason to progress onward through the games.

I think the perk system is totally being wasted.Its used half heartedly and so the detractors are claiming it doesnt work. I see these same people saying the rolling planeset idea doesnt work and as ive never seen it being used i have to take their word for it, however i do wonder if the rolling planeset idea has been used before in the same half-hearted non commital way we have used the perk idea. No wonder it never worked. Too many braty kids want everything for nothing in games as well as in life :D , I say make em damn well EARN the goodies.

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2003, 07:15:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
IMO, only a dynamic perk system based on usage has sense. So, the cost of every plane is being recalculated hourly based on usage, that is, take offs. And the perk value keeps there for two hours, independently of the usage. This perk system may assign between 1 and 10 perks to the planes based on usage plus the static perk cost based on country population.


absolutely mandoble.But this would be far too fair for the 'say no to perk crowd' who claim it stops them flying what THEY want to fly.Regardless of the fact 99% of them have 1000's(if not 100's) of perks to use.They often say they got more than they can ever use and yet they refuse to pay 1 to 10 perks for anything when this could make the MA a constantly changing enviroment with a constantly changing top ten of most commonly used planes.

they just say no to it for the sake of being devils advocate if you ask me.that or they too tight fisted to spend those big piles of perks they seem so determined to keep. :)

:)

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2003, 07:36:06 PM »
What is clear is that actual perk system has no effect at all. It does not help anymore in country balance, and actual perk planes have minimal use. So we'll keep saving useless perks forever. The only scenary where perks have some usage is just with ground vehicles and the Tiger (and mainly defensive, spawning at their own base), but this is clearly because we have only two tanks in the game.

Offline AKWeav

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« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2003, 06:16:33 AM »
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If you perked the top four planes you would see them about as much as you see the f4u1c now


The Chog got more then just perked. It had a bunch of weight added as well. If it still handled as well as it used to, you would see more of them despite the paltry perk cost.

Yet the La7 which outperforms the premodified Chog in every catagory except gun package is unperked. Go figure.:rolleyes:

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2003, 06:41:03 AM »
The la7, n1k, and ostwind are cash cows for HT. they will never change.
The N1k will always have its easy mode no torque or other negatives flight model. The la7 will never be perked because n00bs need it to chase crippled planes down and feel special when they manage a kill. The Ostwind the biggest friggen joke in the game. 70 some odd Ostwinds were made, how many kills did they score in real? How many TANKS did they kill in real. Ostwinds will still disable a tank now. In real how many T-34 or Sherman drivers, or even PzKw IV if you wanna get ridiculous wouldnt love to see 5 ostwinds alone coming at him. The lame arsed spray for 10 minutes straight 1 ping kills anything crap that is the cash cow ostwind.
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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2003, 09:20:30 AM »
So basically we have 3 camps here.

Let me see if I can summarize this argument:

"Perk Everything" crowd:

*Wants Diversity in MA
*Bored of fighting same 4-5 aircraft
*Wants most historical accuaracy
*Wants to be able to compete using early-mid war planes
*Wants to earn their rides, and have all others do the same

"Perk Nothing Crowd":
*Wants almost any plane available at any moment, regardless of skill, or time spent in game
*Happy shooting down the same planes, and cares not what type they are.
*Feels anything that could even possibly restrict their A/C choice is terrible
*Feels Noobs need to be protected from a steep learning curve.

"Hi-Tech's View" (Speculation, of course)
*Keep the planes open to all, so noobs have a chance to learn the ropes on an easy plane, do not get frustrated, and quit, thereby canceling subscription
*Walk a thin line of keeping the Perk and Non-Perk crowds happy so as to not lose subscriptions.
*AH has grown by leaps and bounds..why fix what ain't broken

The more I look at it, the more I think AH is simply becoming Quake with WWII airplanes, and is vulnerable to losing customers if a viable alternative becomes available.

I truly hope AH2 will fix, these problems, but I think many are waiting for this like Christians waiting for the second coming. I don't think AH2 is going to solve everything. If it fails, it could be the end of my AH career.