Author Topic: PERK the BIG FOUR this tour!!!  (Read 3093 times)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2003, 03:18:38 PM »
Lemme guess here terror.. you are primarily a B&Z type player?
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Offline Terror

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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2003, 09:48:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Lemme guess here terror.. you are primarily a B&Z type player?


Nope, I love to turn-n-burn in a Hurri2C or F6F.  ('tis why my overall K/D is only 4/1)  But to survive in my favorite plane, the F4u-1, you gotta be a B&Zer.  Energy is the life blood of that bird.  It's the same with the TEMP.  You gotta keep up your E or the magnet TEMP perk tag will have you swarmed and dead in short order....

Terror

PS.  Why do people think that since there is a small PERK that no one will fly those planes any more?  Those planes will remain extremely popular even with a perk value put on them.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2003, 10:11:03 AM »
If Pyro had balls big enough to play with he'd perk every plane in the MA to some extent :)

Save the no perks for the SEA, TA, DA and H2H.
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Offline Terror

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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2003, 05:30:31 PM »
Does HTC ever comment on PERK this threads?

Just curious.....

Terror

Offline Puke

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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2003, 11:43:11 PM »
I wonder if those aircraft were slightly perked, if it would alter some of the players' fighting styles when in them.  Say, those George/Spit/LA7 pilots may feel more inclined to fly more safely or in a way that allows them to RTB rather than madmen and suicidal like many are flown now.  That might prove interesting.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2003, 12:05:16 AM »
No they would still be flying like suicidal jerry's kids, just not in anything that costs perk points .

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2003, 02:05:46 AM »
Kweassa, two points:
1 - WEP is not unlimited.
2 - It seems your main concern about planes is raw speed at sea level with WEP. Acceleration, turning, climbing, E retention and weapons seems secondary for you.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2003, 02:46:34 AM »
Mand, My concern is with the "margin" of performance efficiency between the most preferred plane types and the rarely preferred types - which includes all attributes; speed, acceleration, ease of handling, armament.. etc etc

 I was working on some basic comparisons analysis on the average speed of top 5 planes, the next 5, and then the next 5 planes etc. I worked with about 15 planes, comparing the current perk agenda and my sugested ones, until a freak accident blew my Comp main board and power systems, burning off the second hard rive too :mad: (sounds like a lame excuse, but that really did happen! :D)

 Was too disgusted to put my hand on it again, but I do remeber some good results - the margin of speed itself, was not anything stellar, however, the plane types became quite different when suggested perks were applied.

 For instance, in the current perk agenda, the top 10 planes in speed category(both MIL and WEP), are usually also quite easy in handling, great in acceleration, great in firepower and carries heavy ordnance. Usually those 10 planes have more than two, three of those attribites mentioned above.

  All of their 'disadvantages' are usually covered up by advantages so powerful that practically the numerous mid-year war planes don't have much chance against them - of the many attributes, it is undeniable that the 'speed' category is often the most pronounced, powerful and evident one.

 In an absolute comparison, it is no doubt the "new free Big Four(or big five, or ten or whatever)" with my perk agenda, are naturally easier planes to fight against, when seen from the cockpit of your average "1942~1943 plane".

 Not only that, but their strengths and weaknesses are much more diversified(!).

 For instance, as you pointed out, the fastest planes are almost all US planes - limited in WEP time, not so great in acceleration, hard handle in a pure dog fight. Of the four US planes in the top 10 speed category with my perk agenda, two are P-47s. Among the four, only one of the two P-47s really carry "heavy ordnance" - bombs and rockets, and those rockets are by pods not pylons, even. Meaning: the P-47 pilot will have to carefully decide on his configuration. Unlike the P-51Ds or P-47D-30s we have now, you can't just carry max ordnance, dump all and immediately expect it to become a fighter. Of course, the rest two, P-51B and F4U-1, are even more limited in jabo capabilities.

 The next best planes are the three 190s - A-5, A-8 and F-8. The Antons are all limited in jabos. Performance wise the A-5 is balanced, A-8 is heavy in firepower but limited, F-8 is a dedicated jabo plane. These planes have twice as longer WEP time,  accelerates better, and also has great firepower - though slower than those fastest American planes.

  It is like this all along the edges. Most of the "best" of the free planes in my agenda, are strictly limited in strengths and weaknesses, and not a single of them have more than two, three strengths in the most important attributes of performance.

 The roles are diversified, even their armament configuration and selections of ordnance, is diversified according to role(because of the limits in ordnance, unlike our '44 super planes we have). The situation where they can be proved effective, is also diversified.

 The balance I look forward to, is a literary one, concerning many attributes, specific roles of planes, era of plane types etc etc.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2003, 07:03:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terror
...But to survive in my favorite plane, the F4u-1, you gotta be a B&Zer..... It's the same with the TEMP.  
 


Let's see....... Tour 40: 31 kills in Hurris and F6F's out of 205 kills total. 15% in your favorite T&B planes.

137 out of 205 kills in either a F4U-1 or a Tempest. Only 67% in self-admitted B&Z mode. But, you're not primarily a B&Z'er. OK.

Quote
PS.  Why do people think that since there is a small PERK that no one will fly those planes any more?


PS: Why do you think your personal need for "variety" should lead to a system that restricts other players' choices?

Fly what you like. Allow other players the same courtesy, please.

None of those planes "unbalance" the arena. They are all quite "killable"  from a "variety" of different cockpits.
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Offline Terror

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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2003, 02:38:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Let's see....... Tour 40: 31 kills in Hurris and F6F's out of 205 kills total. 15% in your favorite T&B planes.

137 out of 205 kills in either a F4U-1 or a Tempest. Only 67% in self-admitted B&Z mode. But, you're not primarily a B&Z'er. OK.

PS: Why do you think your personal need for "variety" should lead to a system that restricts other players' choices?

Fly what you like. Allow other players the same courtesy, please.

None of those planes "unbalance" the arena. They are all quite "killable"  from a "variety" of different cockpits.


OK, why again is B&Z bad?  I didn't say I was NOT a B&Zer, just that I do indulge T&B quite often and that is where most of my deaths occur.  As B&Z'ing is much more survivable, this should be a no brainer.....

Why would paying a small perk "restrict" players choices?  It would just make them think about their choices as they make them.  Just as I do when I choose a TEMP or F4u-1C.

Those planes do "unbalance" the arena if they are making 40% of the kills.  Why have the plane choices if only these four make up almost half the kills?  Obviously these four planes have capabilities that out weigh the other 44 planes available or they wouldn't be used as heavily.

And to offset the newbie factor, give a new player 25 free perks to start.  That should allow them to fly the "Big Four" planes for a bit....

Terror

Offline Puke

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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2003, 02:51:09 PM »
Top speed, WEP or not, means little other than getting from here to there and in possibly making an escape.  I would rather see *acceleration* of aicraft posted as that's more pertinent in an actual dogfight.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2003, 03:58:50 PM »
No, B&Z is neither bad nor good. It is just a style of flying and a choice a particular player makes.

Note however, that the 4 aircraft you want to perk are somewhat more difficult as targets of the B&Z. The LA-7 and the P-51 are both fast at top speed, so unless you catch them slow, they can evade the B&Z pretty well by separating. The N1K1 and the Spit IX (as well as the rest of the Spits) evade the B&Z well by turning. In the hands of accomplished flyers, they can often reverse and ping the unwary B&Z artiste.

So, it seems to me that perhaps another factor here is that these 4 are a bit tougher to B&Z and thus your interest in perking them. I'm sure you would deny this ever crossed your mind, however.

Where perking them would "restrict" player choice is particularly at the level of the newer players. While a few perks seem like nothing to the older hands that can and do kill quite easily in say the F4U-1, a continual loss of perks by newer players can significantly restrict their choices. And, these are the guys that die a lot even if they are determined to RTB.

The more advanced players? Most avoid these aircraft in general. They are easy to fly, easy to kill in. So a lot of folks go looking for a bit more of a challenge. Some even turnfight in the F4U-1.  ;) So perking these four would probably not affect the more advanced guys much and those probably aren't the guys you're seeing "too many of" anyway.

25 perks free? Your generosity overwhelms; you'd allow a player to have 5 free La-7's? How long would that last a new guy?

You are simply using a personal prejudice... that you feel that you see/shoot too many of these aircraft...... as justification for telling other folks what to fly. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on Spits/La's/51's/NiK1's, but that doesn't mean it is any more valid than anyone else's opinion.

Obviously, these are popular aircraft. But they are certainly no more "uber" than most of the rest of the planeset. 1 V 1, Drex would probably kill you or me consistently if he flew a C 202 against either of us and we had our pick of these 4 aircraft and chose to engage him. It's the pilot, not the plane.

In the hands of a newbie, the very guy you wish to deny access to these aircraft, none of them are really dangerous at all.

Certainly no performance reason to perk any of these four. There are other aircraft just as fast, just as well armed, just as capable in a turn fight that you don't mention at all.

You just don't like seeing so many of them. That's the long and the short of it. You want folks to make choices that show YOU more variety.

And that is not your call to make. That call belongs to the guy that's paying his bill and making his own choice. Just as you make yours.

Bottom line is that HTC..... so far...... clearly doesn't agree with you. That's a good thing for the game, IMO. Keeps the new guys interested.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2003, 04:31:20 PM »
The numbers in this Tour (innom's stats page) show ...

Spit IX - K/D 1.11
La-7 - K/D 1.22
P-51 - K/D 0.90
N1K - K/D 1.21

Average K/D for all combined - 1.11

If I remeber correctly, these numbers are very close to the final numbers of the last tour for these planes.

So ... If they account for 40% of the kills, then they also account for almost 40% of the deaths. So they are dying almost as fast as they are killing.

Hardly enough of an impact to unbalance the area.
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Offline hazed-

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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2003, 04:39:27 PM »
toad I think youre reading too much into the rquest.

Most people fly all types of aircraft , I know i do. From hurricane IIC's to me262's they all require different types of flying.True we tend to favour one or the other but its hardly set in stone.I dont know about you personally but I find i drift from one type to another depending on my mood.

I would like to see some aircraft perked purely because I see too many of them on a regular basis.Its the repetative engagement tactics that make it boring for me.

The whole point people seem to consistantly forget is that PERKING an aircraft DOESNT HAVE to be a perminant change.
If for one tour they perked these aircraft and for that tour we saw more and more 190s,p47s,205s and la5s would that really be so bad? once that months up you could remove the perks and go back to this endless story we are currently forced to follow.

I just think a change in the MA would be a good thing at the moment in AH as we havent had any new aircraft or updates in quite a while and nor are we due one in the immediate future.Why not use this time to mess around with the perking idea.I dont think anyone can claim perk points dont work when its never actually been adjusted in any easy to understand way.
we havent ever had perk costs running from a single perk point to 10 erks for instance.
even a small perk cost of 2 or 3 would make a difference to the viability of an aircraft for overuse. It doesnt stop the "fan" who wants to fly it all the time as he will always have a few perks to spare and can rearm etc too,
Only those that waste many of their aircraft would be discouraged and 9 times out of 10 these people fly it because its there and dont care what they fly anyhow.Theres very few true fans of the LA7 for instance because it really isnt as well known to the average online gamer as p47s,p51s,spitfires etc.
Anyhow like i said the true fans wuld easily be able to afford to fly them.

What I see in here is stubborness by people who for the life of me i cant understand.They complain about calls for perking certain types yet they could easily afford to ignore the perk cost and fly them anyway.They would still see these perked rides in the arena, there would be no icon change, they would still get to fly them whenever they like, they COULD have more fights with the rare aircraft like P47d11's and 190f8s or 202s because people would use the free aircraft to defend etc, makes no sense at all.

If I were HTC id use this lull in updates to do some manipulation of the planeset in order to see what people enjoy most. It might not work I can understand that.If perking starts to suck then I'll be first to accept its no good but from what ive seen of it , its never really been used properly apart from one time to fix the f4Uc numbers.A job it did perfectly.

P.S. My favourite type for bnz is 190d9 and Id happily pay a few perks to fly it if HTC did the same for the p51D. people in mustangs would switch over from the p51 to maybe the p38 or p47 for a while or p51B.I'd go over to 190a8 or whatever else is nearest. which means instead of you and i meeting in p51d vs 190d9 we'd have a few 190a8 vs P47 fights. if only.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 04:48:13 PM by hazed- »

Offline bockko

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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2003, 05:08:47 PM »
The idea of perking certain planes is very sensitive. While The gaggles of lala's and 51's certainly can get old, perking them crimps choice, and we pay for choice. We already have great rides perked, some to a point that it isn't worth taking one up and becoming the perk magnet. I much prefer LESS perking, as long as planes are modeled correctly. In the end, its more the pilot than the plane (hordes excepted). Currently the two big maps essentially force us to take fast, long range planes like the p51. Taking a plane with short legs to a fight a sector and a half or 2 sectors away gives you very limited stay time (hmm sorta like 109's over England). I for one get a few hours every couple of nights and sure as &ll dont want to fly a crappy ride for 20 minutes, run out of ammo lickity split, then rtb for 20 minutes. Variety would be nice, agreed. Heck, to find guys (terror's p47's come to mind) working better planes with a "maneuvering challenged" plane sure makes for some memorable flying, but pushing the plane envelope down just reduces the choice factor. Wait, let me summarize: I want my SPIT:cool: