Author Topic: Flight & Combat Basics (Read 3388 times)

SlapShot · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2004, 09:59:20 PM »

TequilaChaser

Your absolutly right. I was trying to give him advise as to what I thought was best. No branding such as "Air Quake" or the like. Schadenfreude decided that segregating and pigeon holeing flying styles was necessary.

Anyways ... I out ... on holiday for 2 weeks. Best of luck Kidjel, and if u see me in the MA and you want to go to TA and mess around, just give me a shout.

Urchin · « **Reply #31 on:** July 11, 2004, 09:42:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Soda

Finally, pick an aircraft suited to your abilities and style. Sure, the Corsair may look cool but if you can barely keep it airborne without crashing then it's a bit pointless to try and fight in it. Lots of people pick Spitfires to start, they tend to be a good choice. They also suit newer pilots who spend a lot of time turning, moreso than many they will learn then should.

Hope that helps...

I actually disagree with the above advice. I think picking the Spit/nik/elgay just because they are the easiest and make the learning curve less steep is stupid, and in the long run you'll learn a lot less than you would if you had stuck with the plane you "like" and learned how to fight in it.

Will you die more, and for a longer period of time? Yes. Will you eventually be better than most everyone else for the effort you put in? Yes.

It depends on if you are willing to settle for mediocrity I guess.

Urchin · « **Reply #32 on:** July 11, 2004, 09:55:55 AM »

And slapshot... you are talking to someone who's view of Aces High is just about diametrically opposed to yours. I've honestly got no idea what shade flies, but I'd be willing to wager that is is 190D9, P-51D, La-7, or Typhoon (with about a 90% certainty of the latter 3). He flies these because he doesn't *want* to fight. And if you fly one of those planes (with the exception of the P-51D, imo), you can run forever and *never* be caught. He doesn't have to worry about not knowing how to "last past the first turn" because for him, there are never any first turns. It is either him taking turns bore n zooming some guy, or him running flat out on the deck from one or more enemy.

Shade, this isn't any kind of personal condemnation, so please don't take it that way.

By the way Slapshot... even you and me aren't from the same "school".. I'm of a more spartan school, where you take a plane that isn't suited to fighting, then learn to fight well in it anyway. You'll be better for it, imo.

That is what I did coming up (flying 190/109), and if someone really wants to be good at fighting, I'm going to tell them "Ok, you should fly the 109/190/P-51D [FIGHTING, no running], P-47, F6F/F4F, F4U, etc. Find a higher spitfire, wait till he dives in and rumble. If you find the inevitable X on 1 and they all dive, see how many you can kill before you go down.

For me, the 109G-10 is just about a perfect plane. The La-7 would be the "perfect" plane for my fighting style, given its higher top speed, better acceleration & turning, and firepower, but I like the 109 so I stick with it.

I can fight 1 or 2 guys from a position of disadvantage, work my way into a position of advantage (depending on their level of incompetence), and still be able to add enemies into the fight if I A. see them coming, and B. can keep the "old" enemies from killing me while I nuetralize the threat from the "new" enemy. Or, if I get horded to much, I can take off running, fight some to bleed down their energy, then take off running again. The G-10 accelerates better than just about every plane in the game, so I am rarely caught once I take off running again.

That is how I have fun. Probably most people wouldn't find it fun, and I die a lot which I know most people don't find fun. But most people take the path of least resistance, and I think that has had the biggest effect on making the gameplay in the MA so tiresome.

GooseAW · « **Reply #33 on:** July 11, 2004, 10:35:58 AM »

Ahh now I knew there was a reason I liked you Urchin! Except for you killin turrets in your spit...That's the style I chose as well

My favorite thing to do is up from a capped field and kill or run off the would be vulchers. Not that I succeed more than fail (yet) at this foolhardy mission. But I do get my heart racing in the attempt!:cool:

Soda · « **Reply #34 on:** July 12, 2004, 12:53:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
It depends on if you are willing to settle for mediocrity I guess.

Explain, and give examples, of how starting in a Spit would make a person "mediocre". Somehow I think getting your bellybutton handed to you constantly because you can barely control a more complicated aircraft (or fly it outside it's abilities) would demonstrate less to a new pilot (and make them more frustrated). Your "self-punishment" methodology is unsupported in almost anything else that is commonly taught.

Glad to know I'm mediocre then, along with guys like Leviathn, Mathman, ammo.... geez.

-Soda

Urchin · « **Reply #35 on:** July 12, 2004, 07:15:37 AM »

Leviathn didn't START in Spits.

He learned how to fight in other planes, then took that knowledge of how to fight and uses it in a Spit now.

I guess the best way to put it is when you practice for basketball sometimes you'll use ankle weights (at least I did). You try to get as good as the other guys while you are wearing ankle weights, then when game time comes you take em off. Presto, instant agility.

Batting practice is the same way. Use a heavier bat for practicing, then move to a lighter bat for the game. Instant bat speed increase.

The last tour before AH2 came out, I decided to play around in the Niki for a few days.

I went something like 20:1 in it, flying it the same as I would have flown a 190A. The main difference was when I'd get into a 3 or 4 on one, I could kill them all because the Niki is a far better fighter than a 190A is.

And Mathman flies the F6F, unless I'm mistaken.

Put him in a Spit 9, or a Niki, and he'll instantly be 2-3 times as effective (at least). Why? Because he is used to how a F6F handles, and he is used to fighting in one. A spit 9 or Niki is at least 2-3 times as good a pure "fighter" as a F6F. He'll get in situations where he'll win in the Spit 9 or Niki (X on 1 being the most notable), where the F6F doesn't have the performance or the firepower to win.

Hopefully that'll make what I'm trying to say a little more clear.

A pilot that starts out in the "Best" plane learns nothing but to rely on his plane to get him kills. He never develops any more than that. A pilot that has learned how to "fight" in a 190/F6F/P51, whatever, has been forced to learn more "advanced" things as far as judging relative E-states, motion, tactics. Not to mention aim- you will improve your aim much faster if you HAVE to hit that shot you keep getting to live. All of this is my opinion of course, yours may differ.

Soda · « **Reply #36 on:** July 12, 2004, 11:26:00 AM »

Urchin,
My point is, you flew the N1K like a 190 because you know all the other skills (situational awareness, maneuvering understanding, timing) that would make you successful in anything you flew. That isn't flying skill, that's understanding skill. That's what separates the good pilots from the bad ones, not the characteristic of the aircraft. Why not give new players something, therefore, that is easy to control and let them develop those understanding skills. Those skills are the ones that transfer around more successfully to whatever they fly.

Most people "out-grow" the Spit later, they learn to appreciate the differences that other aircraft offer and rarely can a Spit dictate a fight like a P-51, 190D9, La7, etc... it takes better understanding to be successful in those aircraft though. Why not help the learning curve a bit by getting those skills developed and not send a new pilot into frustration early. Sure, the Spit can be a bit of a crutch for some, but if that's what makes them enjoy the game, or a little more successful because they start to ask some of the other questions, then so be it.

Using your batting example, the Spit simply helps slow down the pitches a bit so you can recognize a curve from a slider. Even if you have great bat speed you can't hit what you don't understand... why not let them look at some easy pitches to start with, then put on the power so they can hit home-runs.

Urchin · « **Reply #37 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:32:25 PM »

I don't know if the turnover is simply so high that I never see anyone "outgrow" the Spit/Nik/La7 because they are all just quitting the game and being replaced with fresh newbies flying the exact same planes the exact same way, or if the vast majority of players never actually do outgrow them, but I'm not seeing it.

As far as what you call "understanding skill"... you get that by flying and learning to fight in the non-"easy-mode" planes. You actually have to work hard to outfight a spit in a F4U or whatever, and working hard equates to learning.

You develop timing, understanding of various manuevers, SA.. because you are forced to. If you don't develop those skills you simply won't be able to last a minute in an arena full of Nik/Spit/La7... unless you are in one. If you are in one, the characteristics of the plane more than make up for the lacking of any skill as a pilot, making it easy to get at least one kill before you die. Thus, you get people that are satisfied with mediocrity.

These are the people that will try to bore n zoom, but break off their pass if you so much as bank.. but then accept a joust. Why? Because the joust offers them at least a shot at killing a non-manuevering target before they die. At least that is how I see it, although I honestly find this thinking completely foreign to me.

mars01 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 12, 2004, 05:06:12 PM »

You guys have to remember he needs to learn to walk before he can run. Your parents didn't put you on a bicycle before you could walk so you would be that much better at walking.

I agree that flying the harder planes does give you an advantage when you go back to the more forgiving planes, but until you have enough experience to actually understand the difference between two different planes the point is moot.

I still recommend getting comfortable in a single plane, one that is forgiving enough that when you do something wrong you are not snap rolled into the ground or auguring left and right.

Then as you get a hang of flying start to fly the planes that you are losing to. This way you will see how others are beating you in it and how you are getting beat. Then next time your in your comfortable ride try the moves you learned.

As for the crap about always having alt, yeah that is true when your a noob. Alt is your friend. Then once you get good at reversals you learn that alt is not always your friend. There is nothing better than getting a "Major Nelson" to dive on you, make him burn his e and splattering him all over the sky. Where is your alt advantage now lolh.

Remember that this is a game, sure there are a lot of guys that probably put on the leather helmet and scarf before they sit in front of the computer and pretend that they are Snoopy and that is all well and good. If you end up a Cherry Picker then that is fine. Just don't be so arrogant as some to think that it is the only way to play and that everyone else has it wrong or are just playing Air Quake. Most of us started by Cherry Picking, because it is easier than staying low and fighting from a disadvantage. Then some come to a place where the BnZ gets boring and start to look for something more, a different challenge.

To be honest with, I like to do both. When I get bored turn fighting on the deck, I’ll BnZ for a while and enjoy the slower pace. Both styles have their fun aspects. I guess the bottom line is always be aggressive, don’t be afraid to die and try to push yourself and the plane to the envelope. If you do that, most people who run into you will always remember a good fight and you will stay on the edge of your seat.