Author Topic: Where Fur and Strat Collide...  (Read 9308 times)

Offline Steve

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Where Fur and Strat Collide...
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2003, 12:42:42 PM »
Lazs quote: "so znth....why do YOU supposse that the "challenge" was in pee 47's and not zekes?"

Because the guy that thought of the challenge is a P47 enthusiast, you clown, and for no other reason.  Lazs, you try to find an anti-furballer view in just about everything.  Get over yourself, more and more you are just a crybaby who hasn't things exactly his way.
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Offline CptTrips

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Where Fur and Strat Collide...
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2003, 12:56:58 PM »
Quote
Skuzzy ... answer me this ...


Are these fields within a zone or are they exempt from the zone re-supply logic?

Ack is undestructable.  Is fuel? Are hangar?  I assume no GV's, no buffs, no rockets, no bombs.  But fuel can be take out with just guns so invulnerable fuel too?


Apache, I'm not against closer fields.  HT's guideline is 0.75-1.5 sectors between fields.  I think 0.75 works best.  0.5 would be too close.

But you know very well that isn't Laz's only argument.  He already wants to remove GV fields.  Next, lets remove bombers.  Make fuel and hangar's invulerable.  Remove GV's all together.  Remove all model of planes that Laz can't catch in what ever model he likes to fly.   Disallow any plane that flys higher than he likes to fly.

Laz won't be satisfied until he's turned the MA into the DA.   The argument concerning field spacing is merely the thin end of the wedge.



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Offline Magoo

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Where Fur and Strat Collide...
« Reply #137 on: July 02, 2003, 01:14:57 PM »
You know, Laz is on target with the core of his argument. You can always log on and do a strat mission but finding a good furball can be difficult at times. Of course he's on his own with the rest of that BS...

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #138 on: July 02, 2003, 01:21:46 PM »
I hesitate to speak for Laz but I will speak for myself. I think he and I agree on a lot of things though, after having discussed AH with him quite a bit.

I don't think we need to "remove" GV fields. I just don't see the reason for "GV Only" fields. Why not make all fields capable of launching BOTH aircraft and GV's? Is there something special about GV fields? Something that would be prevented by having all fields capable of launching both aircraft and gv's?

It's no more about wanting the MA turned into the DA than having a "tank town" in Trinity is about turning the MA into the DA.

Why do we not hear people telling the GV players to "go to the DA"? Why did they get a "special feature" GV play area when the DA was already available to them?

As Apache said, it's about parity and that's all it's about.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Where Fur and Strat Collide...
« Reply #139 on: July 02, 2003, 01:32:09 PM »
My question was sincere.  Telling me it's wrong and nothing more is pointless and does not serve to migrate the discussion.

Ok,..parity.  Someone want to explain what that means?  Parity between what?

Setting a mini-arena within an arena would require redefining the current code/game.  With only 3 fields, how would it work with 100 players vieing for the airspace?  or even 50?
Spillage would seem to occur.
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Offline Rude

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« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2003, 01:35:28 PM »
This is the reality of it all......

HTC designed this game for us....it sits here offerring up options....folks should choose their medicine and have fun.

This game is what we make of it....it's that simple.

Having come from both schools of gameplay, one is not more legitimate than the other....folks just have a preference. Mine is currently action and may it come fast and furious. I understand the strat guys and the MAWS discipline on squad nights....the 13th TAS did that for years. We're just in a different place now and hope only for an opportunity to enjoy the aspect of gameplay which we prefer when we logon.

The furballers choice is a bit more limited when the arena leans towards the strat side of life...it's not the end of the world for us, it's just not quite as fun.

I've personally dealt with it by pulling 1 or 2 from the edges of these massive base capture thingies and fighting on the fringe...it's not my preference, but it works well enough.

It should all be about what turns ya on....it's your $15 a month. Just don't get upset with those of us who see it as the other white meat.

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2003, 01:47:27 PM »
Skuzzy,

If you've been following this ongoing discussion over the last weeks/months, there's no need for a big rehash.

Basically, from my point of view, I'd be categorized as a "furballer".

I don't have time anymore to play for hours and hours; I'm lucky to jump on and get 45 minutes, 90 is amazingly long for me anymore.

I don't care who wins the war, I have absolutely no use for "perks" as I like to fly early/mid war planes that are unperked.

So, all I want when I log on is a decent chance at a good fight with some like-minded people.

I suspect this is what the "tank town" feature provides for GV guys on the trinity map.

Now, my assessment of the "strat" currently available in AH is that it has generated a tactic of reducing fuel avaliable along the front lines and then mounting massive raids against those fields one at a time in sequence.

Yes, a generalization, but pretty much what I see when I log in most US evenings.

The problem here is that with widely spread fields, the EARLIER aircraft are fuel limited. They have the small fuel tanks and the short range. So, it's not too productive to try to fly a long way to a fight.

Generally then, you have a choice of flying to a less active area and running out of gas shortly after you get there OR you can up "under the steamroller".

Neither of those two choices is very conducive to a fun hour in AH before real life chores intervene.

It's a problem, no doubt.

But there is nothing.. NOTHING.. that the furball crowd does that restricts the strat players.

There is nothing that the furball crowd does that restricts the GV players, particularly in tank town.

However, strat can and does seriously affect the chances of a furball player being able to log in and have a quick 30-45 minute funfest.

So, that's the long answer to the short question of parity.

If GV players derserve a "tank town" why can't the furball players get a similar opportunity? It absolutely would not affect the strategic game as currently played in AH.

And if I'm going to be told to "go to the DA", are we going to take tank town off Trinity and tell them to go to the DA as well?

A side note to this, of course, is the continual "not enough diversity in the planes we see" and/or "perk the big four" threads that continually appear.

Something to ponder. If you'd like to see a greater variety of aircraft up and reducing fuel to 25% severely limits the "usability" of about 1/2 the planeset then maybe you ought to leave the fuel alone, eh?

As a personal example, I really don't fly the P-51 much anymore. But when fuel everywhere is 25%, I take it because you can actually get a fight or two in under those conditions in a -51.

I'd prefer to take an F4U-1, maybe an FM-2 or the C-205. But 25% fuel pretty much makes that a waste of time.

So maybe the current "blow up the fuel" strat is part of the "plane diversity" problem, eh?

Just a thought.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2003, 01:56:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWabbit
Are these fields within a zone or are they exempt from the zone re-supply logic?

Ack is undestructable.  Is fuel? Are hangar?  I assume no GV's, no buffs, no rockets, no bombs.  But fuel can be take out with just guns so invulnerable fuel too?

Wab


They could be within a zone. Can't see any reason why not.

Ack indestructable : YES.

Fuel indestructable : could be but doesn't have to be.

Hangers indestructable : could be but doesn't have to be.

GV's :  Sure why not ... they could be used to help beat off vulchers. There would be no spawn points to the other bases. You must drive ALL the way to the other base(s), only to get wacked by the indestructable ack ... sounds fruitless.

Rockets - Bombs : Sure ... bring 'em to the furball. Might be fun ... then again it might not be .. your choice.

Fuel : I guess it could be taken out, but more than likely not. The indestructable ack could discourage this, plus you have to get by the furballer's to get to the fuel.

One thing, if this were possible, those that would participate in this area would have the understanding that its meant for "furballin'" and if you go pork the other field(s), then there will be no one to furball with, so you have cut off your nose to spite your face.
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Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2003, 02:02:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy

Ok,..parity.  Someone want to explain what that means?  Parity between what?



Well this has been explained in several different ways in numerous other threads and I can understand that you haven’t read, or even wanted to, all of them.

There are extremes in both directions.  Full realism, 20 hour flights, as muck said in the locked thread “Put on my flightsuit...  Inspect official MAW uniform in mirror”, that last one got me pretty good :D.  I digress, and the other side, well, lazs and life is only for the kill everything else is bunk.

What the parity I think the general, more central, view of things is trying to accommodate the furballers a little.  Really the only thing you have to do is as Wab said, keeping airfields about 1 to .75 sectors apart and changing out the vehicle fields with airfields.  I think 1.5 is too far and .5 is defiantly to close.

Doing this gives a greater chance to find a fight when things are bleak.  On certain maps if a few bases are taken and the fuel is porked at a few others it’s 2 sectors to find the fight.  If there were more air bases and they were closer together this wouldn’t happen as much.

The war is still there to be fought there’s just more “strategic” structures to take out now.  Actually we’re asking to enhance the whole game, strategy as well, not just furballing ;).

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2003, 02:04:15 PM »
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Fuel : I guess it could be taken out, but more than likely not. The indestructable ack could discourage this, plus you have to get by the furballer's to get to the fuel.



If bombs and rockets are enabled, and fuels and hangar's are not indestructible, and the field dependent on zone supply that might be interrupted if the zone master is captured;  it would be a trivial matter to keeps the fields closed almost permanently.


Wab
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2003, 02:07:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
My question was sincere.  Telling me it's wrong and nothing more is pointless and does not serve to migrate the discussion.

Ok,..parity.  Someone want to explain what that means?  Parity between what?

Setting a mini-arena within an arena would require redefining the current code/game.  With only 3 fields, how would it work with 100 players vieing for the airspace?  or even 50?
Spillage would seem to occur.


Skuzzy,

How would, what I described as a separate furball area, require redefining the current code/game ?

From what I described, it would appear that is would fit within the current architecture. If it doesn't then say so, and not that you have to, but an explanation of why it wouldn't work would be nice.

I have flown into furballs that have had 50 or more planes vieing for the same airspace ... how is that a a problem ? Spillage ... I don't understand.

I am not trying to be a smartass here Skuzzy ... I am not demanding answers, only asking. I hope u understand.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2003, 02:14:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWabbit
If bombs and rockets are enabled, and fuels and hangar's are not indestructible, and the field dependent on zone supply that might be interrupted if the zone master is captured;  it would be a trivial matter to keeps the fields closed almost permanently.


Wab


I would have to agree. You know more about map making than I and what it takes to create an MA Map. Is it allowable to have indestructable fuel and hangers ? If they can, then make them indestructable.

The thing that I would surmise, is that some sort of unwritten rules - Gentleman's agreements, would reign in this area. Porking fields would be discouraged by all countries and pilots and with that, there shouldn't be a problem for the most part.
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Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2003, 02:19:06 PM »
Quote
Is it allowable to have indestructable fuel and hangers ?


Are you asking me if the editor supports it or whether HT would allow it?



Quote
The thing that I would surmise, is that some sort of unwritten rules - Gentleman's agreements, would reign in this area.


In the immortal words of a goodfriend of mine:

"chuckle, chuckle, chuckle..."


Wab
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2003, 02:26:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWabbit
In the immortal words of a goodfriend of mine:

"chuckle, chuckle, chuckle..."


Wab


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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2003, 02:28:06 PM »
Are you asking me if the editor supports it or whether HT would allow it?

I guess both ... I have limited map making experience, but I believe that the objects can be made indestructable ... Its the "would HT allow it" is the more pressing of the 2 and the hardest.

The thing that I would surmise, is that some sort of unwritten rules - Gentleman's agreements, would reign in this area.

I know its a strech Wab, but ya gotta start somewhere.

Rather than play point / counter-point here, tell me, in your opinion, where the failings are. Again, I am not trying to be a smartass ... just need some answers.
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