B-17 Flight Model

[Goombah]

To Minotaur. Fallen and Yes, to you too dakota...

Gentlemen:

Like you two I was disturbed by the autocratic tone of dakota's posting, and I wanted to make sure that it included me before I replied.

Meanwhile, to learn where he is coming from, I read everything that dakota has posted on this forum,, visited his web site and read the information he volunteered about himself when he registered on the forum.

I am greatly impressed,now understand the reason for the tone of his posting and am no longer offended.

I see that each of you, in your own way have responded to his offensive posting, so here is mine....

All four of us have one thing in common...We are interested in seeing Aces High succeed.

The differences in opinion led, in the case of we three, to some strong expressions of our individual opinions and some intellectual sparring matches where we each threw a few verbal punches to ease the pressure, and , in some cases to bolster weaknesses in our arguments.

Mino, we had fun with our choice of "handles" didn't we!

Actually, Mino,  we were both on the same side in defense of Shacker's very professional offerings, that's why I was puzzled by your(to me, unwarranted attack)

Fallen, we both needed to discover that there were grey areas between our black and white stands,your second posting caused me to evaluate my thinking.

Now, dakota...

Like you, I am of a volatile temperament, so I can understand your jumping in to the discussion, but I must admit that the same volatility caused me to react negatively to your posting.

My gut reaction?...

Who is this guy to tell me "That's enough!" and to chew me out?
 
*I* decide what is enough!, and NO-BODY treats me with disrespect!

So what then, do I learn about dakota, when I look into the matter??

First, he is a successful businessman, and his business is a class act. This tell me that he is intelligent, self disciplined,confident and idealistic.

Does this give him the right to be disrespectful and to butt in? ....No way!

But it does explain why he is motivated to do so.

Looking further, I find that he is an executive chef...aha! Here is why he, though a leader, hasn't learned how to lead those who do NOT have to follow!

I have known several chefs. They must deal with many types of people in their work, and in a Chef's domain he is the UNDISPUTED boss...

He HAS to be, to meet the constant pressures of producing high quality food,consistantly, in varying quantity and sufficient variety, dispite continual deadlines...and do it with workers of varying degrees of skill.

Workers of varying degrees of skill needing varying amounts of training and supervision.

Who also may be of temperaments ranging from apathetic to highly skilled;some  motivated to the point where they believe they should supplant the boss.    

The most gifted and successful Chefs ARE usually autocratic and have no time to mince words or "sit down and discuss".

It goes with the territory.

So now dakota, I am no longer resentful, for I reallise that you overlooked the fact that we are not in your kitchen, and do not have to listen to a word you say, unless you convince us first that what you have to say is valid.

There are more effective ways to lead or convince people than with a bull whip.

I first learned this as a leader in the infantry when it was pointed out to me that a leader is out ahead of his men....and a bullet can come from either direction!

Those you lead must be convinced that it is in their best interests to follow, even in a totalitarian environment like the military or your kitchen.

As you no doubt know, one disgruntled employee can ruin you, dakota, if they become resentful of your lack of consideration for them.

I need not tell you the many ways your restauraunts' reputations can be ruined by just one incident of tainted or ill prepared food.

I strongly resisted the urge to make a scathing reply to your disrespectful, untactful  post.

Instead, I hope that I have figuratively sat down with you and we can now reason together.

I believe we  all share the common aim of helping Aces High to become the ultimate game/simulation we wish it to be.

We need to work together.

You made a mistake in thinking that you could bludgeon us into doing your bidding, when you had not established your right to lead us.

By being insulting and condescending you came off instead, as a person who was massaging his ego at our expense, rather than as someone who had  valid points to make.

Your posting accomplished nothing except alienating us and possibly causing us to reject your ideas in the future.

However,your demonstrated capable performance in other areas,have proven that you have the potential to contribute much toward achieving our common aims for this simulation.

Would you like to sit down with us again, and present your viewpoints in a more respectful, reasonable way?

I can assure you that I will be receptive, for I recognise your expertise in accomplishing what you have in your businesses... Those are  no checkered tablecloth, Mom and pop spaghetti joints there!    

You may rest assured that should I ever be in your area, I will not hesitate to bring guests to either of your establishments with full confidence that they will be pleased and impressed,... and I would hope to mention proudly that I know the chef!

With cordiality and respect to all.

Goombah



[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-21-1999).]

[Minotaur]

Goombah;

LOL  

Call a doctor, I'm gonna bust my gut!

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-21-1999).]

[humble]

Hmm, got to ad my two cents to the end of this rather enlighting thread.

I've always been a flight sim fan but never been a pilot (well I've got about 14 hrs with a CFI in a cessna 172). Low and behold about a year ago my father in law's brother stopped by on his way thru Phoenix. When I found out he had 7 kills in a hog in WW2 and 2 in Korea (seagull F4U-5??) I immediately wound up AW and set him loose. Once he found the F7 view he was happy as a clam. Yup the flight model sucked..and everything was off..but once the "view" out the window was ok and he was having fun.

He had a blast..also said that almost all of the pilots on the sim were better than he faced in the real war.

Whats funny was watching him...think he flew for bout 3 hours...never got pinged..didnt light em up..but probably bout 12-15 total kills over maybe 6-7 flights...guess good SA is like riding a bike.

So my conclusion is the flight model didnt bother him..so i don't let it bother me. BUT, I'm all for as realistic a game as possible and love AH compared to AW.

[Goombah]

Humble

What you don't reallise is that in the military we fly the plane  we are given, for there is nothing we can do about it to change it. Therefore we do the best we can with it if we must take it into combat, dispite its shortcomings.

I flew a B29 for over half a tour that flew slightly sideways because of poorly repaired battle damage or whatever.

But that doesn't mean that I would have accepted it after testing during the design phase, and thereafter all B29's had come from the factory that way.

Beta testing is the design phase and we are all test pilots...or should be.

Goombah

PS. What is a "Hog"?

[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-21-1999).]

[Fallen]

I believe a 'hog' Is an F4U-D Corsair.

And I'd like to thank Goombah yet agian for enlightening me.

--Fallen

[Goombah]

Fallen:

Thanks much!

I knew I had heard the term before, but couldn't place it,  I was in the Army Air Force not the Navy or Marines, so I am not too conversant with the nicknames of those planes.

One of my best friends flew F4U's during that period as a Marine.

In case I don't get back to you again before then...

Have a very Merry Christmas, Fallen!

Goombah

[dakota]

Yes and once again DAKOTA wins the derby for Catching the most "FISH" with the shortest post!!!!!
Goombah,

Lighten up. I commend you for your response. A bit long winded but all the same. I hope you didn't spend to much time researching your response because It is only our pasttime, yes?
Your posts have been excellent and informative to the most part but please in the future don't scold someone for doing something that you do. In other words some people are going to question your responses and they don,t have to be wrong just because they did.
Besides, what makes you think I was talking to you?[And I am not saying this inflammatory, this time]
Yes, I would be more than happy to have you and friends as my guests. You would also find the autocratic guess was just that.
Now lets go shoot some bad guys.

dakota
[he who flies as Birdbutt]

PS How about putting a little info in your bio registry here? I always have wondered why some are so shy. [calm down, request not a flame]

[This message has been edited by dakota (edited 12-21-1999).]

[Goombah]

>>>Yes and once again DAKOTA wins the derby for Catching the most "FISH" with the shortest post!!!!!<<<

Touche'

>>>Goombah,
>>>Lighten up. I commend you for your response. A bit long winded but all the same.<<<

Actually I am sometimes short of breath.  

>>>I hope you didn't spend to much time researching your response because It is only our pasttime, yes? <<<

No!, but I do not do this for a living.

Flight Simulations are not a passtime for me, they are a means to maintain my instrument flying proficiency.

If we are to continue to have improved simulator software, software houses need the input from players during development. Players should be encouraged to give it, not discouraged from contributing.

That's what got me involved on this forum, you will find, if you check my early postings here.

Shacker,though a hobbiest was doing a professional job of testing, but was being belittled by some less knowlegeable posters.

I did not want to see him become discouraged and quite contributing.

>>>Your posts have been excellent and informative to the most part but please in the future don't scold someone for doing something that you do. In other words some people are going to question your responses and they don,t have to be wrong just because they did.<<<

If you are refering to the scolding I gave you, it was because I wanted to emphasise that to accomplish your aims, you must not alienate those you are trying to convince.

However , if your aim was, as you said earlier, to catch a few fish, my remarks were indeed uncalled for...You did it just right!  

I am trying to broaden the outlook of all players, for my past experience has shown that games that pretend to be flight simulations but are "dumbed down" to the point where the individual aircraft lose their identity, do not sell, even to the general public.

They lose their appeal too rapidly and then the word gets around while the first shipment is still on the shelves and the distributer's warehouse remains crammed with them.

This is part of the reason why major software houses are finding it uneconomical to produce flight simulations, and are dropping the line in favor of producing short runs of "toy" software games that are cheaply produced, thus profitably sold at low prices and are rapidly replaced by similar "new" games several times a year.(A form of controlled obsolescence that further increases profits.)

Unless the trend is arrested soon you will have no improved passtime games. and I will have no improved Instrument trainers

Besides, what makes you think I was talking to you?[And I am not saying this inflammatory, this time]

I decided to defend those you were speaking to. You see our differences of opinion had been settled and we were all pretty much in agreement...the flaming phase was over.

Yes, I would be more than happy to have you and friends as my guests.

I would greatly enjoy both of your establishments, each of which appears to be unique in its own way

You would also find the autocratic guess was just that.

I am pleased!

I did not say that chefs cannot be fine fellows in their private lives...and the reasons for that approach in their business life is justifiable.Particularly if they are gifted, for many gifted people are temperamental.

And there is nothing wrong with that...wouldn't life be boring without emotions.

PS How about putting a little info in your bio registry here? I always have wondered why some are so shy. [calm down, request not a flame]

I am not disturbed, It is convenient in my lifestyle to keep a low profile, except for my hobby persona.

Goombah

[dakota]

Well spoken.

Merry christmas to you and may you recieve your best wishes.
[I peeked, got a new cyber fishin'pole. All it needs is the right lure. Hmmm, hehehe.]
See you in the arena.
Take it your a buff driver mainly?

dakota
[now flying as Ubberguy]

[Goombah]

Hello Dakota

Nice that Santa is bringing you a new cyberpole.

<SNIP>  

When in your last message, you expressed your glee at "Catching the most "FISH" with the shortest post", I forcibly restrained myself from pointing out that very few men brag about having short posts!...or use their posts in quite that manner  

That would not have been the best way to demonstrate my little lesson about avoiding alienating people, would it!!!  

About the use of the term "Buff" as a synonym for bombers...I have long deplored that the players of WB and AW have thought it "salty" to use the term, until the continual usage has made it an accepted part of the jargon.

Real world pilots who flew or fly bombers differentiate between Mitchells, Forts(or Ladys), Superforts(or Big A**ed Birds), Tired Turkeys('47's), Hustlers('58's)  and Buffs(B52's).

But yes, I was once a bomber pilot, and to this day stink in fighters.There is a different mindcast to flying the different categories....again, neither one is better than the other, only different.

But I pontificate and am becoming long winded (again)

Merry Christmas to you as well Dakota!

Thank you for your kind words!

Goombah

[Landshrk]

WOW! what an addictive thread...can't believe I read the whole thing!

I can only agree with "a flight sim is as good as its flight model" and leave it at that.  Give HTC credit, we've got air and ground targets...and don't forget the CLOUDS   !!!  All you non-cable modem guys should be happy that it is still under 4MB download.  Take the good with the bad, and let the game developers continue with their projects.

<Candy Gram for HTC>  

Land Shark -out

[Shacker]

Landshark

Got no problem with that at all.

Just would like to see an answer to my original question that started this whole thing.

I realize the 'guages are not calibrated' yet. That is, for me at least, a bit problematic in that I cannot evaluate a flight model without knowing what it is doing. if the MAP and RPM guages are wrong on a piston aircraft then it is impossible for me to provide the developers with accurate feedback regarding their flight model.

First let me say I am not calling anything 'arcade' here. At least not yet. Evaluating an arcade FM is simple. Does it take off? Does it land? Does it move through the air? Will it perform aerobatics? (All without regard for either the laws of physics or the four forces of flight in most cases)

To evaluate something that the developers want to hand the lable of 'flight sim' on then it is a bit more involved.

In the case of the B-17 will It take off with one notch of flaps in the specified distance (based on gross weight) at 46 hg and 2500 rpms? For a fully loaded B-17 this is 3,350 feet at sea level, providing no obstacles must be cleared. To clear a 50' obstacle it will require a 4,400 foot ground roll at 65,000 lbs GVW. (the above assumes standard day calculations for density altitude)

Once airborne will the aircraft maintain 135 mph ISA at 38 hg and 2300 RPMs and climb at roughly 575 fpm from sea level to about 5000 feet.

Etc etc.

Do the numbers have to be dead on? No they should be close but even modern aircraft of the same model will exhibit some performance variances from one to the next. This variance will not be pronounced though.

The only thing I can tell ya about the B-17 FM so far is that the flap response is backward. The nose of the aircraft should NOT pitch down when the flaps are applied. Flaps create increased lift the result of this should be obvious.

My desire is to provide quality feedback to the developers. However, until the instruments are properly calibrated there is no way on earth for me to do that.

I have downloaded every single update that has been posted in the hope that someone would finally calibrate the guages so I can provide intelligent and experienced feedback to the developers. To date, unfortunately, I have seen a lot of eye candy added but have not been able to perceive much change in the overall flight model with the possible exception of the forces of helical propwash being changed from a left yaw tendency (which is correct) to a no yaw tendency to a right yaw tendency.

I want desperately to be of assistance. Trouble is until the guages are fixed there is no hope of me, or any other instrument pilot, being of much use to the developers.

 

[Goombah]

SHACKER

Could it be that the developers don't want us to be able to evaluate their efforts at this time in the development?

How much easier it is to say, the "guages are not calibrated yet" than it is to actually correct the discrepancies in the flight model, or for that matter to actually create the standard day conditions that the FM calculations should be based upon.

One indication of discrepancy which you revealed is the too long take-off distance/time.

But perhaps the runway distance "is not calibrated yet" as well.  ...or the gross weight is not calibrated yet, or even the time base is not calibrated yet...Where does it start or end?

Perhaps this "Beta Testing" is only a charade to suck potential customers into the habit of coming here to fly...

Or only a means to check the capability of the servers to handle x number of moving objects with an acceptable frame rate, thus there is no interest yet in beta testing the FMs.

Let's clear the air here...just what are we supposed to be beta testing for this sim right now...let's hear about that from the quality assurance team (if one exists).

I call upon the developers to tell us what we are supposed to be giving them feedback on, and to give us a full set of reliable "measuring sticks" before they pretend that they are using us to "beta test" their flight models.(Something we only assumed we were to do at this point in the testing.)

Take a vacation Shacker...Or just playtest this game... It is not yet a flight simulation.

These guys aren't ready for you yet.

They may not EVER want anyone to take a close look at their Flight modelling.

Never mind you players answering me with your meaningless flames...I am not talking to you, thus will not bother to debate with you, for you do not have the answers I seek.

Instead I request that the developers come forward and give us all some guidance about what they want from us at this point in their evaluation of their product, so we don't waste our time looking for answers they do not need or want.

They obviously  know that their FMs are absurd and are not trying to fix that yet.

Otherwise they would not be giving Shacker the idiot treatment.

What axe am I grinding here? I'm trying to bring some focus to what is now a Chinese fire drill, not a controlled, systematic beta test.

These so called "beta testers" are presently being used as if they were a thousand monkeys, typing randomly on keyboards in the hopes that they will eventually produce the encyclopedia!

Goombah




[This message has been edited by Goombah (edited 12-23-1999).]

[Shacker]

Roger that Goombah...

That is where I was trying to go with original post that brought out the self appointed expert and a few of the other flamers.

I have no problem with the developers wanting to create a 'fun' game that has virtually no resemblance to actual flight. If this is to be an "Airquake" game then so be it. I'll bow out and let them have at it. I am sure there is a market for such things.

If this is to carry the lable of 'combat flight simulation' and live up to that lable then I'm okay with that as well and would love to help. (there is a LOT of work to be done)

If there are plans to implement the changes then tell me. If not I can stop wasting my time and the developers time and move on to something else.

There are those who wish to 'believe' they are great pilots and worthy combatants. Trouble is with some "flight Simulation" GAMES they are neither. Since the 'flight model' bears little resemblance to anything you or I have ever flown real world. Those GAMES (that is what they are not simulations) cater to the Walter Mittys of the world  and that's fine by me I just want to know which way this product is going from an 'informed' source within the developers group. Then I'll now how, if at all, to proceed.

 

[Fallen]

Sheesh, and i was begining to agree with you both until those last two posts. If you want a flight model that realistic, go fly a real plane. Its costly but im sure alot more entertaining. Your both reading waaaay to into it.

HTC needs to make money. Thats a simple fact. They cant have some super ultra-realistic flight characteristics becuase that will cut thier user base down to the two of you. And then they wont make any money, this still is a 'game' and a 'game' needs to be three things 'fun' 'effective in potraying its theme' and 'able to turn a profit' right now if you ask just about any one here theyll tell you its defintly doing its job at the first 2, and after the beta is up, we'll see what it can do on the third.

Now i personally would love to see a darn good representation of those great warplanes of the 40s...but when i hop into an F4U to fly it around and shoot down some other players, or launch rockets at some acks. I dont want to have to worry about a 30-40 item check list before i can even get off the ground. Who cares about cowl flaps or oil this or...whatever the hell all those things are. Theres about 400 levers and buttons and annoying gauges in one of those things. I just want to be able to experiance the 'fun' part of what those pilots experianced (not saying killing people is fun or anything, you know what i mean) not do all the boring routine crap they did. Im sure they CAN make you hit alt-w to switch up the landing hook, or some other button to make the tail wheel unlock, and another one to start the pnuematics for the wings, and another one to lock them and blah and blah and blah and by the time your done youve been vulched four or five times...ahhhh..sorry im ranting but its just so stupid that any one but a tiny tiny select 30 or 40 people would ever want to do that.

Any way ill shut up now and go play and stop whining.

--Fallen