Author Topic: Collision Model  (Read 1970 times)

Offline Martlet

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Collision Model
« on: June 27, 2003, 08:40:22 AM »
Fix it.

Either have both planes die, or neither.  Getting rammed from behind or the side after taking no hits and dying while the other plane flies off is getting really old.

Offline frank3

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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2003, 08:49:56 AM »
got a point there, or both planes should be damaged or both die, choise is yours htc!

Offline jonnyb

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Collision Model
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2003, 10:13:12 AM »
This one has been beat to death.  The collision model is completely based on your FE.  Because of inherent lag I might see you as 200 away, but your FE reports a collision.  I'd be pretty upset if I'm suddenly back in the tower when I was expecting to line up for a shot simply because your computer reported a collision.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2003, 11:56:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by jonnyb
This one has been beat to death.  The collision model is completely based on your FE.  Because of inherent lag I might see you as 200 away, but your FE reports a collision.  I'd be pretty upset if I'm suddenly back in the tower when I was expecting to line up for a shot simply because your computer reported a collision.


Then remove collisions.

Offline whels

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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2003, 03:55:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by jonnyb
This one has been beat to death.  The collision model is completely based on your FE.  Because of inherent lag I might see you as 200 away, but your FE reports a collision.  I'd be pretty upset if I'm suddenly back in the tower when I was expecting to line up for a shot simply because your computer reported a collision.



if i can hit u with bullets and damage u where i see u, then if i hit same plane with my plane, it should take damge also.

if we cant have  both planes take damage due to lag of  net cause the plane isnt really where i see, then how do i hit it wih guns?

its either were i see it or it isnt, not both depending on
what the programmer chooses.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2003, 04:00:12 PM »
I don't feel like typing it all out again.  Here is a copy/past job from past threads:

_____________________________ _____________________

If both FEs must see the collision for the collision to occur there will essentially be no collisions anymore.

Tactics to be derived from this involve things like intentionally flying through the target aircraft while firing as it is impossible to miss from one foot away from the target. This is not a small change and it would not be rare.

Another effect would be the switch to free form manuvering without regard to the proximity of your airframe to the enemies airframe. It would remove one of things that a combat pilot in a close dogfight needed to track from the game.

This kind of change in tactics essentially destroys any and all simulation of real world tactics. The rules have been changed so much that it is no longer a simulation of WWII air combat tactics.

Personally I have no interest in flying in an environment in which the need to avoid collisions is not part of the tactics used.

_____________________________ _____________________

There are only four ways of modeling damaging collisions in online games, all of which have been tried at some point by HiTech. The possibilities are: both are damaged, neither are damaged, the aircraft on the FE that detects the collision is damaged and the aircraft on the FE that does not detect the collision is damaged.

I will give a breif overview of the pros and cons of each system and a breif look a gunnery modeling as well.

Both Are Damaged:
Pros: This most accurately simulates the resulting damage of a collision between two real aircraft. This system can be seen as egalitarian because both suffer the damage.

Cons: It can be seen as unegalitarian because players suffer collisions that they were not responsible for. Ramming becomes a major combat tactic in the simulation. It creates and environment in which ramming targets that can't dodge is rewarded, e.g you take off to defend a field and ram an enemy aircraft knowing that he can't dodge and it'll cost him 5 minutes of flight time against your 30 seconds of flight time. It increases the "gameyness" of the game. It encourages unrealistic tactics, above and beyond being imortal.

Neither Are Damaged:
Pros: It can be seen as egalitarian because both survive.

Cons: This is the least realistic solution. There is no longer any reason to even attempt to avoid collisions. HOs would be even more common. Hitting a target, say a B-17G, is easy when you just dive through him while firing your guns, the shells fired from 10 feet will hit. It encourages unrealistic tactics, above and beyond being imortal.

The Aircraft On The FE That Detects The Collision Is Damaged:
Pros: Each party has an independant chance to avoid the collision and is rewarded for their success. It can be seen as egalitarian because only the responsible party suffers. Realistic behavior is encouraged.

Cons: It does not generate an accurate simulation of the damage that occurs in a real collision. It can be seen as unegalitarian because only one party suffers.

The Aircraft On The FE That Does Not Detect The Collision Is Damaged:
Pros: None.

Cons: It does not generate an accurate simulation of the damage that occurs in a real collision. It removes the reward for avoiding collisions. There is no longer any reason to even attempt to avoid collisions. It creates and environment in which ramming targets that can't dodge is rewarded, e.g you take off to defend a field and ram an enemy aircraft knowing that he can't dodge. Hitting a target, say a B-17G, is easy when you just dive through him while firing your guns, the shells fired from 10 feet will hit and if that doesn't kill him your aircraft certainly will. HOs would be even more common. It increases the "gameyness" of the game. It encourages unrealistic tactics, above and beyond being imortal. It can be seen as unegalitarian because only one party suffers.

Bullet Hits

The Target Is Damaged If Bullet Hits Occur On Either FE:
Pros: All bullet hits anywhere cause damage, e.g. if it looks like he hit you, to you or him, he hits.

Cons: Sometimes the shooter is rewarded even though he missed his intended target. Effectively doubles the target's size for the purpose of "Spray and Pray" shooting.

The Target Is Damaged Only If the Bullet Hit Occurs On Both FEs:
Pros: Bullets only hit if the target absolutely did not dodge.

Cons: Aircraft would be insanely hard to hit, hitting being more a matter of luck than of skill. Massively frusterating for the shooter.

Only The Shooter's FE Calcultes And Applies Damage When A Bullet Hit Occurs On It:
Pros: The shooter is only rewarded for his hitting intended target.

Cons: The target has a slightly reduced SA and slightly reduced ability to dodge.

Only The Target's FE Calcultes And Applies Damage When A Bullet Hit Occurs On It:
Pros: Maximizes the benefits of the target's SA and the target's ability to dodge.

Cons: The shooter must guess where the target is on the target's FE and is thus shooting at ghosts. Only dead 6 o'clock and dead 12 o'clock shots have a good chance of hitting, if the target hasn't changes course on the target's FE.


When you think about these things, try not to think about how it has affected you personally in the game, rather think about it in the terms of its effects from a theoretical player A's and player B's perspective and from the overall effect it would have on gameplay. Some of you have commented that the current system is exploitable and suggested a different system in its place. It doesn't seem that you tried to think of exploits in your proposed system. Think of those and compare the exploits of each system. Which is worse? Once you've done all of that, then present your arguments.

Until we get 10ms or faster ping times for everyone the system used in AH generates the most realistic, least frusterating, least exploitable results of the available systems.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2003, 04:36:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by whels
if i can hit u with bullets and damage u where i see u, then if i hit same plane with my plane, it should take damge also.

if we cant have  both planes take damage due to lag of  net cause the plane isnt really where i see, then how do i hit it wih guns?

its either were i see it or it isnt, not both depending on
what the programmer chooses.


There have been times when I would swear that I got under the oncoming plane with the correct angle as to avoid any gunfire ... only to hear bullets ripping thru my plane and the tail come off.

I was flying the other night, into a merge with an N1K, where I had at least 100-200 foot separation between him and I on my left. After the merge, I swung right, checked my rear view and to my amazement, he lost 1 wing and was going down completely on fire. I have seen this at least 4 or 5 times before.

If on the above scenario, I /You ended up in the tower, I/You would be pissed beyond belief.
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Offline Innominate

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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2003, 05:41:54 PM »
squeaking is pointless.  Despite the bad(imo anyways) collision system, its not going to be changed, no point in squeaking.

Collisions like everything else in AH favor the person with the bad internet connection.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2003, 06:04:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
squeaking is pointless.  Despite the bad(imo anyways) collision system, its not going to be changed, no point in squeaking.

Collisions like everything else in AH favor the person with the bad internet connection.


Guess I'll have to switch to dial  up when I play.  I'm gonna join the ranks of the warpers.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2003, 06:27:23 PM »
If it upsets you, I like it.

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2003, 06:41:58 PM »
Collisions favour the guy who doesn't see a collision on his FE


Now.. granted the odd occasion you will fly away from what appeared to be a collision on your end but 9 times out of 10, if you see another plane collide with yours... you are taking damage.


Its really very simple... YOU hit something YOU take the damage.   Only YOU can stop collisions




SKurj

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2003, 06:54:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SKurj
Collisions favour the guy who doesn't see a collision on his FE


Now.. granted the odd occasion you will fly away from what appeared to be a collision on your end but 9 times out of 10, if you see another plane collide with yours... you are taking damage.


Its really very simple... YOU hit something YOU take the damage.   Only YOU can stop collisions




SKurj


Unfortuately, that isn't always the case.

Offline GunnerCAF

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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2003, 08:19:03 PM »
I would say, the way it is now works real well.

If you hit somone, you blow up, if you don't hit somone, you don't blow up.  Sounds like a good system to me.

Why sould I blow up if I don't hit anyone????

If you hit somone, and you blow up, why do you care if they other guys who didn't hit you blows up or not?  

If you want to make people blow up by crashing into them, your playing the wrong game.  Someone should make a game called "Blowup."  You fly around and crash into people to make them blowup.

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Offline Martlet

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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2003, 11:52:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GunnerCAF
I would say, the way it is now works real well.

If you hit somone, you blow up, if you don't hit somone, you don't blow up.  Sounds like a good system to me.

Why sould I blow up if I don't hit anyone????

If you hit somone, and you blow up, why do you care if they other guys who didn't hit you blows up or not?  

If you want to make people blow up by crashing into them, your playing the wrong game.  Someone should make a game called "Blowup."  You fly around and crash into people to make them blowup.

Gunner


I only care when someone rams me from the side or back, then flies off happily as I crash and burn.

Offline GunnerCAF

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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2003, 12:19:54 AM »
Quote
I only care when someone rams me from the side or back, then flies off happily as I crash and burn.


If you hit some, you take damage.  If they hit you, they would take damage.

I have never had anyone hit me from the side or back,  I guess I get out of the way, or get shot down long before that happens.  Being that close and in front of the enemys guns is a bad thing... kind of like loosing the fight either way.

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