Author Topic: Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted  (Read 5385 times)

Offline Bullethead

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Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted
« on: July 22, 2003, 11:30:27 PM »
While I was at the Con, quite a few people (Grimm, Slapshot, and Ghostdancer that I recall--there were more but I was drunk) said they believed that capturing fields was too easy.  This bothered me because I try to make arena maps, and help others with their maps, and of course I want to make a quality product.  I'm concerned enough to ask you all for your opinions on the matter.  Not just whether you think it's too easy at present, but what can be done about it, and what the long-term effects of any corrective measures would be.

Before you all sound off, let me start the ball rolling with my own opinions.....

As AH has evolved, HTC has made field captures harder and harder.  That's why fields have gotten more acks over time and we now have towns at airfields, etc.  And at first capturing fields with towns was more difficult than before.  So why is it now "too easy" when HTC hasn't changed the system recently?

I believe I can answer that question.  The changes HTC has made have all been along the lines of requiring more people to take the field than before.  There are more acks and more hangars, and the town requires you to control a larger volume of airspace, etc.  So IMHO, since the last round of changes, the AH population has simply learned what needs to be done, and to band together into attack groups large enough to have a reasonably good chance of quick success in airfield captures.  And now we've been operating that way long enough that it's become routine, so airfield captures appear easy again.

In considering the above, there are some important issues to take into account.  IMHO, the most important is the organization of the attackers.  If you have a squad of guys divided up amongst the various tasks that need to be performed, and they have the discipline to do their jobs and not sneak off to steal vulches, you'll usually find field captures relatively easy.  OTOH, a much larger number of disorganized freelancers might not ever capture the field vs. the same opposition.  

I think this will always be the case, no matter what changes are made to the system.  No matter what's done to make field captures harder, the organized pilots will figure out the optimum attack method and go do it routinely, so that it eventually seems easy to them.  They're organized now and no changes to the system will make them lose their organization.  

Thus, IMHO, tweaking the difficulty of field captures will only affect the disorganized rabble.  In 2 ways.  First, and most likely, increases in capture difficulty will cause corresponding increases in the size of dweeb herds mobbing fields.  Every level of difficulty can be overcome by throwing enough bodies at it.  Second, some of the rabble may join squads or form their own, and thus achieve the organization necessary to make captures fairly routine.  

So at the bottom line, increasing field capture difficulty creates a Darwinian force that compels pilots to form larger and more organized groups.  This means that a greater percentage of the arena population will be engaged in field captures than before, leaving fewer for other things like furballing, battles in the GV areas, and lone wolf fodder.  Now combine that with the big maps and their huge frontages.  That gives you an even higher likelihood of large forces doing unopposed landgrabs, because the pilots must be more concentrated than now, but have the same huge area to cover.

Having said all that, let's assume that somehow increasing capture difficulty is still desirable.  Without a major overhaul of the system by HTC, there's only so much that map-makers can do.  We can't change the basic system with towns and all that.  All we can do is add more work to do, and/or make it more dangerous.  Basically, we can redesign airfield layouts, add some buildings and acks, and sometimes make individual objects harder to kill.  But we can't make really substantial changes or the strat system won't work right.

Here's an incomplete list of some possible changes, to show those of you who don't make maps what I'm talking about:
  • Have 2 or more VHs at each field, and give the GVs a spawn right near the town(s)
  • Have more acks and/or more mannable acks
  • Have more town buildings, or multiple towns in different areas (still only 1 maproom however)
  • Require more drunks to capture a field (although I don't really like this one)
  • Put fields about 10-15 miles apart instead of 20-30, so reinforcements can arrive sooner (although this gives you about Pizza's number of fields on Baltic's area)


Of these sorts of changes, my preferences start at the top and go down.  I think having several VHs would be a very good thing in general.  A few more acks would be OK as well.  But beyond that, I think we start running into trouble.  NOTE:  on a related issue, it would be easy to add more fuel, ammo, and barracks to fields to make them harder to pork.

Anyway, that's how I see it.  I'd like to hear what you all think.

Offline Toad

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Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2003, 12:03:52 AM »
Here's some tinder and a few sticks for the bonfire that's sure to come.

I'd say make the field capture way easier. Make it like it was back in beta.

Make it so easy you don't need a horde to steamroll a field. Make it so a small squad could do it with a little jabo practice and goon escort.

I think that would make it so that you'd need a horde to defend what you took, all along the front. Leave a base untended, you'd lose it.

Maybe the tide of battle would ebb and flow much more violently, with much more fighting. End runs and rear field sneak attacks might become more prevalent and add interest.

Just a thought.


I will now grab a lawnchair and a beer.

I'm sure this will turn out to be an interesting thread.
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2003, 12:50:42 AM »
When HTC first brought out the town with the map room off the base, I thought it was kind of a neat idea...however, I did like the old style of field capture more and I still do.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2003, 01:10:26 AM »
How about making it necessary to capture the field within so many minutes of taking down the town otherwise the capture will fail.

I'm sure you remember that in AW, you had a 5 minute window to capture the field once it was made ready.  If you didn't make it with in that window of opportunity, you had to start all over again.  Made for some epic fights at the big pond for those N bases.  Or there's also the route that AW3/MV took and that was dropping 12 drunks within 5 minutes to get the capture.

But I do like your idea of having 2 vehicle hangers and a spawn point to the town.  Maybe also adding a manned ack gun in the town as well.  I also think there should be mannable 88mm acks that can fire both AA and AT rounds at each field to compliment the existing 37mm manned acks.  Maybe even add a few .50 cal machine gun emplacements in addition to the 88mm and 37mm gun emplacements.


Ack-Ack
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 01:30:39 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Cooley

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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2003, 01:11:49 AM »
*Make Airfields req 20 troops

*Be able to man town ack positions
and/or create some of them bunker ack positions in town like some strat areas have, or even create an Ack tower w/ mannable 5inch gun that needs 1k ord to destroy

* Bump VH hardness up so it needs 4k of ord

* AI/Drone Civilians  from town try to kill troops with Pitchforks
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 01:17:21 AM by Cooley »
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2003, 01:16:32 AM »
I like Toad's idea.

Making it too hard simply enforces the overwhelming gangbang horde tactic and eliminates any finesse tactics.

Personally I'm sick of being one of a few defenders trying to hold a base against twenty plus attackers or being among the twenty plus attackers and vying for a kill on one of the few defenders.
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Offline Steve

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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2003, 01:16:40 AM »
too much to read... let me know when it comes out in Cliff's Notes.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2003, 01:50:50 AM »
I prefer Toad's idée !

Offline Roscoroo

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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2003, 01:51:13 AM »
Arm the sheep around all of the towns with 50 cals.

a few more acks and some manable guns at the towns would be nice, along  with a extra vh  on the small maps.
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Offline mjolnir

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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2003, 02:45:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Here's some tinder and a few sticks for the bonfire that's sure to come.

I'd say make the field capture way easier. Make it like it was back in beta.

Make it so easy you don't need a horde to steamroll a field. Make it so a small squad could do it with a little jabo practice and goon escort.

I think that would make it so that you'd need a horde to defend what you took, all along the front. Leave a base untended, you'd lose it.

Maybe the tide of battle would ebb and flow much more violently, with much more fighting. End runs and rear field sneak attacks might become more prevalent and add interest.

Small squad?  Who needs a squad?  We used to be able to do it with two guys.  One guy would grab a C-hog or something of that nature, strafe out the 8 ack, maybe bomb the VH (if people even noticed and were upping), and the goon would land on the runway, kick the troops out right next to the map room, and Bingo!  Field was ours.  But sneak attacks and end arounds died the day they put in the flashing base icons on the map.   2 guys or 20, you can't get near a field without the other guys knowing it, so if you want to get it taken quickly, you need to have 20.

If they were to put it back to where a small group of people could grab a base while the other guy wasn't looking, they'll have to either can the town idea and move the map room back on the field, or can the flashing icons and air raid sirens.  Personally, I'd like to see the flashing icons go.

Offline BNM

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Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2003, 03:09:06 AM »
Agree with Toad. Would like to see fields easier to capture and a "little" closer together. Also fuel underground as in 'out of the picture' as to not limit plane choice.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2003, 03:17:05 AM »
spawn point near the city is bad - it will mean that once the attack has been spotted you'll have dosens of osties suddenly spawn in the town. let them drive a bit a give the attackers a chance to kill them.

mannable acks at the city is a good idea to prevent from a single ostie + m3 to steal the base.

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Offline AKcurly

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Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2003, 03:40:14 AM »
Several 5" mannable ack positions at the airfield will defend it quite nicely.   This, along with 2 vehicle hangars and spawn points at the towns will make it a challenge.

As it stands now, if you don't notice a sneak attack until they are at the field, you are almost helpless: 1) They will shoot the field ack down and you can't launch.  2) By the time you get a vehicle to the town, it's too late.

curly

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2003, 04:53:32 AM »
Mr. Toad!  Got another lawn chair and another beer so that I may join you?  Hehe, quite good ideas - especially for European/Australasian prime times when fewer people are online.

As to whoever suggested "Hardness" changes, be off with you. Whenever I see that, I see a hidden agenda: Folks wanting to annul the effect of bombs, because they can't defend their base against them and don't like the effect the bombs have. How about if I called for bullet "hardness" to be reduced, because I don't like being shot down and don't like the effect my enemies bullets have on my plane? No. These would both be changes to alter playing style. I object. Refer to Skuzzy's quote in my sig.

As for ease of base capture, it's already quite easy to capture a vehicle base single handed - assuming the map tweakers have left us any vehicle only bases - LOL. P38 - 10 rockets, 2x500. 8 rockets will kill the VH - start the clock as soon as it goes down. Fire remaining rockets on to auto ack, and strafe the mannable ack. Dump the 2x500 if no GVs came out, or use them if you have to. Bail. Grab M3 and drive in...

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Offline Crowwe

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Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2003, 07:02:25 AM »
I do like the current system of capturing towns, it encourages the lack of porkage at the fields.

However, if (and I think Zanth said this) they increased the size of the town 2-3x with appropriately numbered ack, it could give tactical aircraft a nice boost. A single fighter wouldn't be able to drop an entire town...