Author Topic: Heil Intolerance  (Read 11769 times)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #330 on: August 05, 2003, 01:08:19 PM »
Yeah, much of the thread is pretty silly.

There's some that want to actively descriminate against gays.

There's some that want "affirmative action" for gays.

There's some that want the other side to renounce their overt support of gays.

There's some that want the other side to renounce their overt opposition to gays.

And there's intolerance on both sides, particularly in the last two categories.

Remind me again about how wars start?

On to 500 men! We can take this hill!
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Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #331 on: August 05, 2003, 01:12:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
Well Hortlund, if not being able to provide a mom and dad environment does intervene with gay couples being able to adopt, than you're also implying that 'regular' couples should be prevented from divorce/separation while raising kids. And not allowing singles to reproduce for that matter...

I sincerely doubt that having two same-sex parents is more damaging to the child than having just one, which is the norm by todays standards.


Well, no Im not. While it is best for the kids to have a mom and a dad, it is impossible for the government to legislate against divorces. That is a solution no one wants. Personally I would hope that all the moms and dads would take their responsibility the best they could. Stay married? Great. Divorce? Sure, if you have to you have to, but in the divorce scenario both parents really should strive to ensure that the kids still have two parents.

And we cant accept gay adoptions just because there are divorces. That is like apples and pears.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #332 on: August 05, 2003, 01:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Sorry Hortlund, I just don't get it.  You yourself admit to being raised in a single parent home and you seem to have turned out okay.  You even made it to be a judge for heavan's sake.  But here you are arguing that a person must have a mother and father and use it as justificatiion for denying gays the right to adopt.:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That is quite possibly the most confusing thing I've ever read on these boards.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[very serious]
Curval, how many times do you think I've wished that I had a dad? Especially when I was younger?

Im not saying that not having a mom and dad automatically leads to disaster for the kid. Im saying that the kid needs his mom and dad, and if you remove either one, the kid will be affected somehow.

Now we all have our demons, I know I do, and I'm sure you have yours too. Personally I think mine comes from growing up without a dad.  
[/very serious]

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #333 on: August 05, 2003, 01:43:14 PM »
Quote
Not just my opinion, a belief based on study and evidence. Whether it is genetic or people are born gay, I'm sure it is something that people have no choice in deciding.


how exactly does a genetic desire to sleep with members of your own sex, and not have sex with the oposite sex, get passed down from generation to generation?  I mean scientificly I understand how a recesive gene can lay dormant for a generation or 2, but the idea of a gene that would generally stop people from further contribution to the gene-pool whenever the gene combination surfaced as dominant in a person, makes the likelyhood of this genetic defect surviving in our species for so many thousands of years unlikely.

it's like the blue-eyes / brown-eyes thing where 2 brown eyed people can have a child who has blue-eyes if they both have recesive blue-eye genes.  however if you took a group of people and evey time a blue-eyed person was born, you took that person out of the pool of breeders then eventually the likelyhood of a blue eyed person would become less and less.  blue eyes would become rarer and rarer until you eventually would have no blue eyed people born.

since homosexuals would be less likely to breed and have children (at least until science figures out a way for one man to get another pregnant.  I'm sure once the marriages become more excepted some scientist will find a way to 'help' with that), you would think they would become fewer and fewer with each generation.

on the other hand if it where a learned or chosen behavior, then as the behavior becomes more and more excepted, more will feel free to experiment with this behavior or choose it exclusively, making the numbers who choose this behavior become more common year after year.

so which seems the more likely answer with the numbers of gays we see?  I know the 'it's how I was born' is the PC way to look at it. but if you do some thinking you see it just doesn't hold up.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #334 on: August 05, 2003, 01:50:15 PM »
Quote
but the idea of a gene that would generally stop people from further contribution to the gene-pool whenever the gene combination surfaced as dominant in a person, makes the likelyhood of this genetic defect surviving in our species for so many thousands of years unlikely


Perhaps if you allowed them same sex marraige, then they wouldn't reproduce.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #335 on: August 05, 2003, 02:00:31 PM »
I doubt it would have any effect as I believe it is a learned behavior.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #336 on: August 05, 2003, 02:08:58 PM »
Does your fanciful theory provide an explaination for its origin then, since it is learned behavior?

Offline Curval

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« Reply #337 on: August 05, 2003, 02:15:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty
Does your fanciful theory provide an explaination for its origin then, since it is learned behavior?


Check Christopher Lowels family tree.:rolleyes:
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #338 on: August 05, 2003, 02:23:51 PM »
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Alfred Kroeber and his wife Theodora Kracaw Kroeber were pioneering anthropologists largely responsible for the establishment and growth of the Department of Anthropology at the University of California. In 1939 Alfred Kroeber published a landmark essay in which he called his fellow anthropologists to task for their reluctance to study the American Indian berdache tradition because of its close link to homosexuality.
Alfred Kroeber

There are sources available that shed a bit of interesting light on this subject that deal with it BEFORE or WITHOUT more modern (and some truly old, I guess) slants cast by religion and politics.

Just for those really interested........
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #339 on: August 05, 2003, 03:19:04 PM »
Well, far be it from me to shun my responsibilities to help this post reach 500 replies:D.  I asked several questions in an earlier post that remain unaddressed.  Specifically, what social benefits was society attempting to gain by instituting civil marriage?  Forget the religious issue, since the idea of marriage as a legally binding contract predates most organized religions.  It was created for objective reasons, not subjective ones.  The reasons lie outside emotion, since love was and is not a prerequisite for entering into marriage…it merely adds incentive.  So claiming that gays have a right to marry same-sex partners based simply on the fact that they love each other is insufficient to justify civil recognition of such unions.  The argument goes, “Gays that love each other have a right to the same entitlements/benefits as same-sex couples.”  Or,…

“Why should same-sex couples be allowed civil marriage?”
“So they can get the same entitlements/benefits as same-sex married couples.”
“But why do same-sex couples get those benefits?”
“Because they’re married.”

Circular reasoning.  The problem is, most folks in this debate ignore the more fundamental question of why those entitlements/benefits have been extended by civil governments to married couples in the first place.  So, what are the fundamental reasons for civil recognition of marriage?  There’s really only one: Children.  Or rather, children, and the stable environment to raise them in.

Society recognizes that most married same-sex couples have – or can have – children.  This is a positive thing for society (in general), as it insures a stable and self-perpetuating society.  Because children cost money to bring into the world and rear, certain benefits are extended to the couple from government (tax advantages, property rights, etc.), and from business (more of an incentive to attract and keep stable workers) to defray the costs.  These benefits are in recognition of the parents’ decision not to simply abandon the children.  It was also very common (and still is, though not as much as in the past) for one parent to work and the other to care for the children.  These benefits encourage parents to commit more fully to the care of the children they bring into the world.  Only two people of the same sex can produce children by non-artificial means.  Two people of the same sex cannot have children with each other.  Society also recognizes that having a both a mother and a father is the ideal environment to raise children.  Hence, civil marriage is and should remain a union between a woman and a man.

The perception is that homosexual relationships are not as stable as heterosexual ones, in general.  I am curious.  What percentage of homosexual partnerings last till the death of one of the two, versus heterosexual couples?  What is the average length of each type of relationships categorized as permanent, or at least long-term (i.e. lasting long enough to raise children to their majority)?  Was not the much more rapid spread of AIDS in the homosexual community, versus the heterosexual community, due in some part to the unstable nature of most homosexual relationships?  If this is so, than it further reinforces the notion that marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman, as a stable family unit is widely acknowledged as the key to a stable society.

This is not to say there are not examples of long-term same-sex couples.  But what does it buy society to extend marriage entitlements and benefits to same-sex couples?  It’s not a question of “fairness,” but rather of cost-vs.-benefit to society.  And make no mistake, extending civil recognition to same-sex couples will have a huge pricetag.

By the way, Capt Apathy, I never considered that angle on the genetics theory of homosexual tendancy.
Sabre
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #340 on: August 05, 2003, 03:25:55 PM »
Quote
Check Christopher Lowels family tree. - Curval


 I must confess that I watch Christopher Lowell's show whenever I run across it. Its kind of like watching two octopusses mating on the Discovery Channel... you don't want to get personally involved in it, but its so darn entertaining to watch. :D

One time he had his Dad on the show as a guest. His father is a burly Longshoreman dockworker looking kind of guy. A man's man. They were standing there together in front of the camera and Lowell's dad put his arm around his gay son and hugged him with obvious fatherly affection and pride.

You can tell that Lowell was uncondonditionally loved as a kid.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #341 on: August 05, 2003, 03:59:25 PM »
For those doubting the 'gay at birth' theory, can they tell me why anyone would choose to be gay?

It certainly can't be for tax reasons.
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #342 on: August 05, 2003, 04:04:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
I doubt it would have any effect as I believe it is a learned behavior.
Quote
Apache wrote - What evidence? Could you point me to the scientific analysis? I would like to take a gander at it.


Well

This Page  (the same one I posted before) has links within the articles to publications and other studies as a backup to the conclusions reached. Maybe that would be a good start.

Learned behavior? I think the only learned behavior in this thread is the hatred for gays.

Your point regarding the genetic dead end is a good one though and should be addressed.

Here is one possible explaination:  
Quote
Sociobiological accounts go a long way toward making a genetic basis for homosexuality plausible in the sense that the reduced fitness of some individuals does not mean that their genetic endowment must necessarily disappear from the gene pool. Sociobiology proceeds by emphasizing the genetic fitness of kinship groups, small clusters of individuals, rather than individuals.3 On this view, the relevant unit for analysis is the group’s survival rather than individual genetic survival. Any genetic makeup that contributes to the survival of the kinship group is by definition adaptive. It is the hypothesis of sociobiology that homosexuality contributes to the survival of the kinship group by enabling contributions that are not possible otherwise. For example, if men and women who are strictly homosexual have fewer children of their own, they can be available for other tasks important to the survival of the group. They might help in the raising and rearing of children and perform other tasks suitable to the childless. If so, homosexuality would be an integral component in the distribution of labor necessary for survival. The kinship group that has genes for homosexuality distributed across its members would be the group more likely to survive. Thus would the genes be preserved even if individual homosexual men and women did not have children.


This Site provides links to a ton of articles mostly scientific on the subject.

Check it out.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #343 on: August 05, 2003, 04:36:28 PM »
Sabre,

looks like you use "same" and "opposite" as synonyms :)

good post

Offline Rude

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« Reply #344 on: August 05, 2003, 04:45:37 PM »
Homosexuality - a Learned Behavior
 

This paper was written by a clinical psychologist who has been in practice for several years. He has worked with issues surrounding sexuality for many years, and his opinion on this matter should be taken seriously because of his years of experience and his willingness to have an open mind. This willingness to have a "different" opinion has sometimes been quite controversial for him.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The Learning and Unlearning of Homosexual Preference
In October of 1982, the Social Justice Committee of the Minnesota Council of Churches issued a highly controversial "Statement of Ministry To and With Gay and Lesbian Persons." Most of the controversy has centered around the statement's assertions that homosexual behavior is morally acceptable. Quite aside from the morality issue, I found one particular assertion in the statement contrary to scientific evidence. The Text reads: "The matter of one's sexual or affectional orientation is not necessarily a matter of choice. Evidence continues to suggest that there is a giveness about it." That statement is simply not true. There is no demonstrable connection between sex hormone levels and/or chromosome structure and sexual preference. Drs. John P. Brantner, Norman Garmezy, and Erving I. Gottesmen, prominent psychologists at the University of Minnesota, verify this. Their opinion is further corroboration of an earlier research summary made by the University of Minnesota's Dr. Ephriam Rosen, who wrote in 1965: "It can be stated with confidence that no consistent abnormalities of endocrine function have been observed in any group of sexual deviates." Interestingly, the homosexual himself frequently believes in a constitutional explanation, endocrine or otherwise. I was born that way and it's unfair to expect me to behave differently, is his claim. It was the conclusion of these University of Minnesota scholars and researchers that no persuasive evidence exists for a genetic or physiological cause of homosexual preference. It is, of course, possible, that at some time in the future some such evidence might be discovered. But the important point is that, at the present, no such persuasive evidence exists.

On the contrary, the most likely hypothesis in the light of available data is that sexual preference is learned. The basic law of learning, the law of reinforcement, states that organisms develop preferences for those behaviors for which they are strongly, frequently, and immediately reinforced by closely related rewards. Sexual arousal and climax are among the most powerful of reinforcers, and are therefore among the most powerful of teachers. Whatever activities an individual engages in frequently, if they are followed by the reinforcing event of orgasm, will become strongly preferred. Even the imaginary rehearsal of behaviors in fantasy thinking, if followed by the reinforcing event of arousal and climax, will become preferred. Thus, masturbation, with its attendant fantasies, has played a critical role in the learning of homosexuality ans well as heterosexuality, depending upon the content of the masturbation fantasies. For example, if a young boy has an early homosexual experience with a seducing adult or older boy, and later reinforces this experience by himself with masturbation and fantasy thoughts, the boy's preference may become homosexual. There are other factors which might predispose an individual to indulge in this self-teaching process. A boy who has considerable anxiety about females or who is preoccupied with winning the love and acceptance of other males, or who identifies with a feminine gender role, might engage in the requisite learning process leading to the development of homosexual preference. This does not mean that the individual sets out at an early life stage deliberately to learn homosexual preference; the entire process of self-teaching may be quite unconscious. Indeed, it may seem to the individual that one day he or she "discovers" a preference for sexual activity with members of hor or her own gender. Learning theory suggests that when such a "discovery" takes place, it is merely the coming to awareness of a self-instruction process that has been underway for a long period of time.

If sexual preference is learned, then it can be unlearned and relearned in an opposite direction. There is a growing body of evidence for such unlearning and relearning. An article appearing in the American Journal of Psychiatry for December, 1980, reports on eleven men whose sexual orientation changed from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality through participation in a pentecostal church fellowship which apparently was a powerfully effective learning environment. Religious doctrine, learned in a close-knit religious fellowship, offered the subjects a "folk therapy" experience which was important in producing their change. On the average, their self-identification as homosexual occurred at age eleven, their change to heterosexual identification occurred at age twenty-three and their period of exclusively heterosexual identification at the time of this study was four years.. The developmental sequences of these men were remarkably similar. All had been actively engaged in homosexual relationships and activities. All except two had "come out" and had been openly active in the gay lifestyle. After their commitment to heterosexuality, their social relationships with women and there attraction to women developed. Six of them married because of sexual attraction and love for a woman. Five were unmarried. None of the unmarried men engaged in heterosexual intercourse because of the religious prohibitions of their church fellowship. However, all of these looked forward to marriage and three were actively dating at the time of the study. The "folk therapy" of religious learning and supportive fellowship was, by itself, effective in their learning heterosexual preference.

There is much additional evidence that homosexuals who wish to change can alter their sexual orientation. It is true that earlier psychotherapeutic strategies, following the general Freudian approach, did not have encouraging success record. But since the late 1960s, the various behavior-oriented therapies based on efficient unlearning and relearning processes, have yielding success rates ranging from 57 percent to 100 percent. The most encouraging behavior-oriented therapies employ a multi-modal approach. They combine breaking the mental association between pleasurable feelings and homosexual fantasies, building as association of relief and anxiety reduction with heterosexual fantasies, and training, where needed, in appropriate courtship skills and assertiveness.

It is important to note that these high success rates are for persons who want to change to a heterosexual preference. We do not insist at IPT that a homosexual attempt to become heterosexual. In fact, we work with homosexuals on many problems without trying to change their sexual orientation. But for persons who do come to us requesting change, we make use of the multi-modal approach with encouraging results.



Institute for Psychological Therapies,
Dr. Ralph Underwager, M. Div,. Ph.D.,
Licensed Consulting Psychologist
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I suspect that I am less forgiving than Dr. Underwager. While I do respect their free agency to choose their own lifestyle, it is my view that, in order to perpetuate the homosexual lifestyle, it is absolutely necessary to recruit in order to continue to exist at all. This means to me that, by necessity, they can be expected to prey on others in hope of recruiting them to accept -or participate- in their choice of lifestyle. I personally have seen this recruitment, and I believe that while they employ what I feel is despicable and underhanded methods of recruitment, they must, by their own inability to otherwise continue their lifestyle continue their inappropriate methods of recruitment.

To often, this means your children -or mine- are being recruited behind our back. This is simply unforgivable, and cannot and should not be tolerated.

I am willing to listen. Anyone that would like to rebut the above discussion is free to do so. I will post here, any honest, dissenting opinion that disagrees with the position statement or suggestions I have made here. My e-mail address is RussS@INet-1.com.

My homepage is at: http://www.inet-1.com/~russs/homepage.htm and there are several articles similiar to this one linked from there. Check it out!