Heil Intolerance

[Rude]

Where does it say that masterbation is LESS of an offense to God than being gay?

God's word does not say this...rather all sin is sin....God does not judge one sin worse than another like we do, with one exception, the denial of the Holy Spirit...that sin will not be forgiven.

As to many going to hell, it's not just here on this board, but across the globe.

God's plan for us is to have fellowship with us....he has provided his Son as the propitiation of our sins so that we might have life and life abundantly.

Man's own pride will condemn himself.

God loves us all...why I have no idea....I don't feel deserving of that love, but the Word says that it is not by my own works and deeds that I am saved, but rather by God's grace.

Faith is required of us.

For that I'm thankful.

[Nwbie]

"I have a feeling ALOT of guys on these boards are going to hell."

Oh kripes !!!




NwBie

[Curval]

Hold on a second there Rude.  Justification for preventing (or fixing) homosexuality has been provided in the form of Romans Chapter one...by yourself and others.

Romans chapter 1 does indeed describe homosexuality as being a sin.  But it ALSO describes many other things that are sins INCLUDING masterbation.

So, until I hear a call from the religious right demanding that those who masterbate should be "fixed" in the same way that gays should be (no more, no less) I will continue to consider such calls to be hypocritical.

You cannot have your cake...and eat it too.

From what you have just written it seems like the perfect "out" in all of this is to simply admit one's sin and ask for forgiveness.

God gave me the fine specimin that hangs between my legs, he gave me a hand, and he made orgasms extremely pleasant.  Why should I ask for forgiveness for doing something HE made feel so damn good?

[Sabre]

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I believe that this paragraph is refering to those that people that know these activities are sinful, and in spite of that knowledge not only do these things these things, but actually take delight and pride in others that do so.  Guess "gay pride" parades would fall into this catagory, eh?

By the way, Mormons do in fact beleive that masterbation is a sin.  They believe it to be a misuse of God's gift to create life.  Catholics do not, as I recall, and I'm not sure about other religions.  I'm assuming you refer to Romans 1:24 and 1:26, though I have to admit they could mean something else than a specific act, such as masterbation.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Sabre
I believe that this paragraph is refering to those that people that know these activities are sinful, and in spite of that knowledge not only do these things these things, but actually take delight and pride in others that do so.  Guess "gay pride" parades would fall into this catagory, eh?

Or shooting a huge load while thinking about two lesbians getting it on.  I've done that..you?  I'll do it again too...possibly tonight, depends on how tired the wife is.

By the way, Mormons do in fact beleive that masterbation is a sin.  They believe it to be a misuse of God's gift to create life.  Catholics do not, as I recall, and I'm not sure about other religions.  I'm assuming you refer to Romans 1:24 and 1:26, though I have to admit they could mean something else than a specific act, such as masterbation.

I don't care what Mormons do or don't do...same goes for Catholics (except when their priests molest children..then I care)

I specifically stated Rom 1:24 as being the reference to masterbation.

[capt. apathy]

they are all sins, all equally sinful.  the reason this is a bigger issue at this time, is that nobody is asking society to embrace these other sins as something wonderful and good.

 if a group of people in support of any of the other sins where to march in parades, and try to change school curriculum to tell my kids this behavior is not only ok, but something to be proud of, you can bet I'd be squeak'n just as loud.

[Curval]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
they are all sins, all equally sinful.  the reason this is a bigger issue at this time, is that nobody is asking society to embrace these other sins as something wonderful and good.

No-one here , that I can see, is saying it is wonderful and good.  They (we) are just saying "Who cares, let them do what they want to do."  Gays simply want the right to marry.  It is your side that is causing the uproar and using ludicrous bible passges to prove your points.

[Rude]

So, until I hear a call from the religious right demanding that those who masterbate should be "fixed" in the same way that gays should be (no more, no less) I will continue to consider such calls to be hypocritical.

The call is from God himself and not man.

From what you have just written it seems like the perfect "out" in all of this is to simply admit one's sin and ask for forgiveness.

Repentence is required and is a part of forgiveness....to merely ask for forgiveness but not turn away from that sin in the future is kidding  ones self. Repentence is to turn away from sin.

God gave me the fine specimin that hangs between my legs, he gave me a hand, and he made orgasms extremely pleasant. Why should I ask for forgiveness for doing something HE made feel so damn good?

God gave you what you speak of to bring pleasure as part of marriage, between a man and a woman. Many things in life bring physical or mental pleasure, yet are wrong according to God.

Remember, I didn't hand down these rules...God did. I try my best to comply, yet truthfully, am a failure pretty much on a day to day basis. It is my faith in God and his Son to which I hitch my pony....I pray daily and confess my sins...God promises to those who are in Christ, to be faithful and to forgive those sins.

We all will make choices in our lives as to what we believe or don't believe in....I made mine. Some here speak of alternatives as if they themselves are unique in how they live. I have walked many paths in my life...done many things which I am ashamed of to this day...I was a completely different human being until I realized my sins and confessed them, asking God to save me through his only Son. I was born again...a new person.

Now to those who want to speak of this experience, though you have never walked in it yourselves, and condemn it as foolishness, remember...I HAVE walked where you now walk....the difference being that God dealt with me and I responded.

He will deal with all of us, and at that time each and every one of you will make a choice....we all will reap what we sow.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Rude
The call is from God himself and not man.

Really?  God wrote the bible?  You believe this...I say man did, and that its words have been translated and repeated so many times that I am willing to bet it retains NONE (or very little) of its original meaning.  But then I suppose you will say that God had a "hand" in this.
 
Repentence is required and is a part of forgiveness....to merely ask for forgiveness but not turn away from that sin in the future is kidding  ones self. Repentence is to turn away from sin.

But when you "fall off" the sin wagon, you can just ask again right?  Very convienient.

God gave you what you speak of to bring pleasure as part of marriage, between a man and a woman. Many things in life bring physical or mental pleasure, yet are wrong according to God.

Again, you see God's word in the bible...I see man's interpretation of God's word in the bible.

Remember, I didn't hand down these rules...God did. I try my best to comply, yet truthfully, am a failure pretty much on a day to day basis. It is my faith in God and his Son to which I hitch my pony....I pray daily and confess my sins...God promises to those who are in Christ, to be faithful and to forgive those sins.

See my two comments above.

We all will make choices in our lives as to what we believe or don't believe in....I made mine. Some here speak of alternatives as if they themselves are unique in how they live. I have walked many paths in my life...done many things which I am ashamed of to this day...I was a completely different human being until I realized my sins and confessed them, asking God to save me through his only Son. I was born again...a new person.

Now to those who want to speak of this experience, though you have never walked in it yourselves, and condemn it as foolishness, remember...I HAVE walked where you now walk....the difference being that God dealt with me and I responded.

I have already said that I respect you for your choices.

Why can't you respect a gay's choice and not attempt to limit their actions based upon how YOU interpret the bible?

He will deal with all of us, and at that time each and every one of you will make a choice....we all will reap what we sow.

Fine, let the gays get married and let God sort them out when they die.

[/B]

[Sabre]

Originally posted by Curval
Romans chapter 1 does indeed describe homosexuality as being a sin.  But it ALSO describes many other things that are sins INCLUDING masterbation.

So, until I hear a call from the religious right demanding that those who masterbate should be "fixed" in the same way that gays should be (no more, no less) I will continue to consider such calls to be hypocritical.

You cannot have your cake...and eat it too.

Was merely point out that some on the "religious right" (as defined by liberals, that is) have done just that.  No other point intended.

I specifically stated Rom 1:24 as being the reference to masterbation.

Must have missed that.

Regards,

[SOB]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20030806/ts_washpost/a21844_2003aug5

In a news conference after the vote, Robinson said his opponents were right that the decision was contrary to the church's traditional teaching against homosexuality.

"Just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the church and Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong," he said. "We worship a living God, and that living God leads us into truth."

Gay rights advocates called Robinson's victory a major step toward full acceptance of gays in the Episcopal Church and in American society. Mindful that a national debate is raging over same-sex marriage, they said the church had added its moral voice to those encouraging gays to form life-long, monogamous relationships.

"This is an example to the country, to the culture and to other denominations that diversity is something to be celebrated and that the entire family of God is enriched by individuals who commit themselves to each other," said the Rev. Susan Russell, executive director of Claiming the Blessing, an Episcopal group pushing for an official rite for blessing same-sex unions.

Opponents said the outcome is a step toward moral disintegration in America. They predicted that it would cause thousands of Episcopalians to join more conservative denominations or Episcopal splinter groups.

"The Episcopal Church will emerge from this convention broken, wounded, divided and desperately polarized," Bishop Edward Little of Indiana warned during final debate.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Sabre
Was merely point out that some on the "religious right" (as defined by liberals, that is) have done just that.  No other point intended.



Must have missed that.

Regards,

Sabre,

I was a bit heated in my other response.  Apologies.

It is kind of funny though, I have the distinct feeling you have "painted" me with a liberal "brush".

Unfortunately for you though that is not quite as easy as it may seem.  

I'm not American and therefore I am not a Republican or a Democrat.  If I "had" to be one or the other I would choose to be a republican with respect to economic agendas and "liberalish" with respect to social agendas.

This is why I said what I said in my first post in this thread.

You cannot label me as you can with other Americans.

[Curval]

lol...and SOB stirs the pot again.  You REALLY want this to be a 500 post thread huh?  

I was wondering who would put that in this thread.

Comments Capt, Rude and Sabre?

[SOB]

I thought it was relevant in light of the reference in the quote to gay marriages.  I think I've made my feelings on the subject abundantly clear, tho, and continuing to contribute anything more than subject matter may lead to me being unkind to the likes of Sabre and Apathy.  Best for me just to say nothing further.  


SOB

[Sabre]

A good point, Curval, though I honestly didn't intend to call you a liberal.  As you say, it is definitely too broad a brush for some.  I've re-read Romans 1:24, and have to say, this doesn't look like a reference to masturbation.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

The words "between themselves" are a clear reference to a cooperative venture, i.e. some sort of interaction between two or more people.

SOB: I respect your intent.  I would hope we can conduct discussions -- even on such a potentially emotional topic -- without the need to demean or demonize each other.  I always try to re-read my posts several time before hitting "Submit Reply" to insure I'm not unintentionally insulting or putting down the intended (or unintended) reader.  If I ever come across otherwise, I would hope people would point it out, so that I might apologize.  My "liberal" remark above probably counts as a "sorry, that was not constructive" type remark.

"Just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the church and Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong," he said. "We worship a living God, and that living God leads us into truth."

This is the sticking point of the whole debate, from a religious standpoint.  It's on a par with those who say the Constitution is a living document, subject to the whims of societal change.  What is his (Rev. Robinson's) church based on, if not the Word of God?  Is the Bible in fact the Word of God, in his mind?  Should God change for us?

These are all theological questions of course.  I'm still waiting to hear some ideas on my "Why was civil marriage created?" question.  Why should same-sex couples receive the same entitlements as heterosexual couples?  What are the benefits to society that outweigh the costs to government and business?