Author Topic: Heil Intolerance (Read 13328 times)

Lance · « **Reply #165 on:** August 01, 2003, 08:13:36 AM »

Nah, I bet SOB just wanted some BBS fracas to read while eating corn dogs.

Wanker · « **Reply #166 on:** August 01, 2003, 08:25:05 AM »

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Address all of them, please. You and others keep ignoring the incest and adultery question.

Sabre, we keep ignoring those other issues because they add nothing to the debate. The issue is not whether to allow marriages to a goat or your grandfather, the issue is whether we should legalize marriges between two adults of the same sex.

My argument is that because gay people do not choose their sexual orientation, they should be allowed to marry each other, and get full benefits, just as a married man & woman do.

If there were some proof that homosexuality was a conscious choice, then I would agree with you. But it's not. And I'll go farther and bet that eventually we'll discover that it has something to do with messed up genetics.

Sabre, it's obvious that you're morally offended by gay men sodomizing each other. I am, too. The thought of that just churns my stomach.

That being said, I realize that that type of behavior is just the act of making love to someone you care about. However abhorrent it is to us, to the two people involved, it's just a way to make love.

Rude wants to "help" gays by sending them to some "de-gaying" process or program. This is also not going to work. There have been many famous examples of gay people trying to become straight by marrying hetero, and failing miserably.

Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, the famous Russian composer of "1812 Overture" fame, was a gay man who tried to go straight by marrying a woman. Within 2 days, he fled the marriage and had a nervous breakdown.

It would be the same result if you or I tried to "go gay" and try fornicating with a man. I don't know about you, but nothing, and I mean nothing, could compel me to have anal or oral sex with another man. I couldn't even bring myself to kiss another man.

What is it that you are afraid of if gay marriages are legalized?

Maniac · « **Reply #167 on:** August 01, 2003, 08:31:54 AM »

For being an straight guy banana, you sure have alot of knowledge about this

Wanker · « **Reply #168 on:** August 01, 2003, 08:34:12 AM »

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Originally posted by Maniac
For being an straight guy banana, you sure have alot of knowledge about this

Hey, I paraphrase everything that Ripsnort, uh, teaches me.

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #169 on:** August 01, 2003, 09:49:36 AM »

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Originally posted by Curval
Saur...I wonder how many gay people you know but have no idea that they are gay. I'm willing to bet there are a few. When/if you find that out about someone you really care about will that line you draw stay in place?

Yes the 'line' will remain. Accountability is the key here. If you cross the line, you are in the wrong, and it doesnt much matter who you are, IMO.

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine is hiding in the closet, then voices his lifestyle choice (yes, I believe its a choice) having hid it from me for X amount of years, how good of a freind could he have been? I dunno about you, but I would be questioning an aweful lot of other aspects of our friendship if I learned he was gay.

In addition to that, had I known he was gay in the first place, I wouldnt have associated with him. Since the friendship was based around who I 'thought' the person was, and that thought turned out to be false, whatever connection there might have been wasnt real in the first place.

Having a family member step out of the closet is a little more hairy, and to be honest, Im not sure how I would approach that.

midnight Target · « **Reply #170 on:** August 01, 2003, 10:12:34 AM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund
It is an example that just because the law might say that something is allowed, that doesnt make it right... see gay relations, marriages and adoptions...

Once again Hortlund is absolutely correct in this little tiny point that he somehow culled from the argument. Sure legality and morality can diverge. See NAZI Germany for many examples. WTG.

BTW.... your point is pointless.

We are talking about consenting adults here. Pedophilia doesn't apply.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #171 on:** August 01, 2003, 10:15:43 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
This thread was originally about gay-marriage and the US government under Bush contemplating making it a crime.

Actually Bush advocated a law defining marriage as being between two opposite gendered adults.

This is a far piece from calling gay marriage a criminal offense. Gay marriage just would not be recognized for purposes of tax, insurance and the like. I believe that only an extreme minority would advocate imprisonment, and Bush is not part of that minority.

Wanker · « **Reply #172 on:** August 01, 2003, 10:19:25 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Actually Bush advocated a law defining marriage as being between two opposite gendered adults.

This is a far piece from calling gay marriage a criminal offense. Gay marriage just would not be recognized for purposes of tax, insurance and the like. I believe that only an extreme minority would advocate imprisonment, and Bush is not part of that minority.

Don't be too sure, Holden. Once the Republiclowns and the Religious Right get going, there's no telling how far down that slippery slope this country would go.

Gay pogroms, anyone?

capt. apathy · « **Reply #173 on:** August 01, 2003, 10:47:00 AM »

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This thread was originally about gay-marriage and the US government under Bush contemplating making it a crime.

nobody has sugested making it a crime (nobody in office with the power to make it happen). it is perfectly legal for gays to marry each other in some sort of social or religious ceremony.

the question is do we (U.S.) recognise a special type of mariages as legal, get the courts involved when they fall apart, give them children to raise, and basicly legaly force society in genral to except this lifestyle.

the issue isn't new discriminitory laws against gays. they will still be able to call themselves maried and anybody who finds this lifestyle ok can treat them as such. (and this does happen, wal-mart for 1 example recognises when gays say they are married and provides health care for the 'spouse')

the thing is there is a big push by gays (especially here in Oregon) to change laws to legitimize their immoral behavior.

(not illegal, immoral. some of you keep going down the 'whats legal' road. in a descusion about 'should something be legal or not'. saying 1 behavior is ok because it's legal and another not is irelivant, so yes the pediphilia and adultery comparisons are vallid. all 3 are issues of imoral behavior)

this would force others, who feel this mariages or wrong, to treat them as legitamate or be in violations of the law.

the issue is not should we make a law to restrict gays. the issue is should we make special laws making it ilegal not to treat these couples as if they are a legitamate maried couple.

Gremlin · « **Reply #174 on:** August 01, 2003, 11:14:13 AM »

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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
In addition to that, had I known he was gay in the first place, I wouldnt have associated with him. Since the friendship was based around who I 'thought' the person was, and that thought turned out to be false, whatever connection there might have been wasnt real in the first place.

That is so sad. When in a friendship are you supposed to tell someone that your gay? The first time you meet. 'Hi my name is x and im gay'. I certainly dont go around flaunting my heterosexuality so why should gays have to?

If i was gay and happened to befriend you. your very attitude would be good enough reason to not mention it to you. Anyway whats it to you what your friend does with his/her sex life? I mean it aint like your being asked to watch!! You know I dislike the idea of homosexuality probably as much as you do however I wouldnt stop being friends with some1 just for that. I value my friends for what they add to me and other people, not for what they do behind closed doors. Maybe if I found out that they were criminals or murderers I would have to end the friendship. Being gay certainly doesnt come into that category.

Sandman · « **Reply #175 on:** August 01, 2003, 12:19:03 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
This thread was originally about gay-marriage and the US government under Bush contemplating making it a crime.

My views on these matters is simply that:

1) Marriage is a religious ceremony and the government of Man has no right to interfere.

But the government has interfered... there are legal benefits to marriage. Maybe the key is to call it "civil union" for government purposes and just leave it at that.

Sandman · « **Reply #176 on:** August 01, 2003, 12:22:45 PM »

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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the thing is there is a big push by gays (especially here in Oregon) to change laws to legitimize their immoral behavior.

Immoral behavior... hehe... other states have no problem with the legality of gambling but there's revenue there so that particular "immorality" is okay.

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #177 on:** August 01, 2003, 12:24:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Gremlin
That is so sad.

Come on... do I tell you your views are sad? What is that supposed to accomplish? I dont mean to make an example, but I cant help to notice that the 'Cavemen Conservatives' are making constructive arguments explaining their viewpoint and the 'Enlightened Liberals' are basically retorting with variations of "Youre dumb!"

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When in a friendship are you supposed to tell someone that your gay? The first time you meet. 'Hi my name is x and im gay'. I certainly dont go around flaunting my heterosexuality so why should gays have to?

I dont flaunt my sexuality either. Its rude - if you recall one of my previous posts, I stated that I didnt want parades clogging up the streets. That basically works out to I dont want them flaunting it. There isnt a set time limit on when one should 'tell' another he or she is gay, but I cant help to think that someone could fool a 'friend' so completely. My point is that is an issue important enough, like sexual orientation, is lied about, I wouldnt really have wanted to be friends with the individual to begin with.

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If i was gay and happened to befriend you. your very attitude would be good enough reason to not mention it to you.

[/b]

So Im not allowed to choose my friends based on sexual orientation, but youre allowed to choose freinds based on their convictions?

The better question would be - if you were gay and I told you I was accepting of it, then you caught me making fun or you or bashing on you behind your back, allowing you to draw the conclusion that I lied to you about my acceptance, would you remain friends with me?

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Anyway whats it to you what your friend does with his/her sex life? I mean it aint like your being asked to watch!! [/b]

Its not about watching or whether or not its my business. I just dont feel confortable around gays. Im sorry, I was born that way - maybe if we march on Washington we can have 'Homophobe' replaced with 'Birth-Caused Homosexual Uncomfortability Syndrome.' Woe is me.

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You know I dislike the idea of homosexuality probably as much as you do however I wouldnt stop being friends with some1 just for that. I value my friends for what they add to me and other people, not for what they do behind closed doors. Maybe if I found out that they were criminals or murderers I would have to end the friendship. Being gay certainly doesnt come into that category. [/B]

I value my friends as well, and I dont have any gay friends because I dont value gay companionship. In your words, they wouldnt be adding anything to me, they would be taking something away. Im sure there are gay people out there who are fantastic human beings, Im not disputing that, but I just dont agree with their lifestyle choice and I will not associate with them if I dont have to because of it.

In mind mind, thats no different from saying I wont associate with a coke head. I lost one friend because of drugs - tried to help him - to no avail. At that point in his life, drugs were more important to him that his friends. He would steal money from his freinds, threaten vilolence - he became a different person. Now hes a complete waste of life and I dont associate with him.

Since gays maintain that they cant be helped - in fact that there isnt even a problem, I wouldnt even bother. Sorry bud, Im sure your still a great guy, I just cant look you in the eye anymore and respect you knowing that you were bent over a chair last night.

SOB · « **Reply #178 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:18:02 PM »

Saur, I don't think he was calling you stupid. It's sad that you would end a long-term friendship over something so trivial and obvioulsy (if you didn't know about it), so far removed from why the friendship exists. Sad, ie disappointing, unfortunate, etc.

SOB

-edit- Oh, and a better quote would be this... I'm bigoted against bigots.

The_Shocker · « **Reply #179 on:** August 01, 2003, 01:58:55 PM »

Sexual perversion is not a crime. Its an adventure.