Author Topic: The Void between Machine guns and cannons.  (Read 10944 times)

Offline HoHun

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #225 on: August 14, 2003, 01:39:24 AM »
Hi Kweassa,

>What did the US think about tracers in general? What about the RAF or the LW? I'm very curious of this.

From what I've read about US experience, tracers were considered deceptive. I don't think that's due to the different trajectory, but rather due to the difficulty of seeing where the tracer stream actually goes in three dimensions. ("Did I miss long or short?")

I've not read anything about the RAF experience, but it's telling that they introduced a rather advanced reflector sight with range compensation just before WW2, which might indicate an emphasis on aiming by the sight as for the Americans. The "De Wilde" round is also interesting since it seems to have been very popular with the pilots - apparently, the bright flash it gave when impacting the target, visibly signalling a hit, was no small factor in that. (Which implies that tracers alone weren't that useful.)

With regard to the German experience, both von Richthofen and Udet advocated aiming by the sight in WW1. I don't know about WW2, but apparently the Luftwaffe stressed deflection shooting using the gun sight, and trained the pilots for it.

By the way, the function of the British range-compensated sight was explained to Milch on a pre-war visit of an RAF airfield by Dowding himself. That the Luftwaffe didn't duplicate the system shows that they didn't consider trajectory curvature an issue.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #226 on: August 14, 2003, 01:49:02 AM »
What about the 'trail' itself?

 If there was a smoke trail left behind by US .50s, wouldn't that provide some type of relative, general info on whether they are shooting "longer"(smoke travels over the target) or "shorter"(smoke travels under the target)?

 Would it be safe to assume that an absence of the smoke trails had in part, something to do with it? Or, did the .50s leave a smoking trail behind? Were US tracers supposed to do that?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #227 on: August 14, 2003, 07:51:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
For one thing, at least people won't be whining about gun performances, or N1K2s or Spits anymore.


Now THAT really did make me laugh out loud. If there's one constant on this BBS.......


Henning, yep, I think I can back it in from there. It has the weight, the velocity and (after I translate it) I think I can figure out the sight in range and the trajectory. It may come out a few hundreths off, but it would be close. When I get some time, I'll take a shot at it. Thanks.

So, you'd have to add the AH Convergence factor. We can set individual pairs of guns out to 600 yards.  ;)

Be an interesting test for HT to turn tracer off for two months then turn it back on for two months and compare hit percentage averages in the second month of each test. I'd speculate that people would adapt to "no tracer" and shoot about as well in AH without it and do their shooting at about the same ranges. I've tried tracer and no tracer and after intial periods of adjustment I shoot about the same. You can see the target more clearly without them.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 07:54:01 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #228 on: August 14, 2003, 08:19:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Toad re watch that pac you can count every tracer.





 

One..... two......
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 08:21:51 AM by Toad »
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #229 on: August 14, 2003, 08:44:01 AM »
You said

Quote
It's almost an unbroken line of light


I replied

Quote
Toad re watch that pac you can count every tracer.


As opposed to an "unbroken line of light".

"Nothing like ah" means it looks nothing like AH. Those AH bright orange tennis balls that ah uses for tracers are easily used to aim with. In AH I dont use a gunsite and depending on the plane no tracers.

First the target is close, second the bright tracer is enhanced against the black terrain.

Look at AH 6 foot like sabre tracer. Then watch all the films and you will none of it looks like that. The go back and look at the Il2 50 tracer pic on the other page of this thread.

Take that pac pic in its totality and it clearly is "not like ah".

Then go look at the 50 cal ah pic on the other page of this thread and you see them easily out beyond 600 yrds.

Then go watch the main page film on the link you posted and see many 50 strikes with no visible tracer.

Again you jump on a specific issue when clearly I said numerous times that theres a combination of "issues" that contribute to ah longer effective kill range.

You keep mentioning HT but as I said I dont care what he does. My point is simply related to long range gunnery not a cry for change. I simply dont care.

The visual aids in ah aid long range gunnery. The simple dm makes long range kills easier. In a game with similiar ballistics minus the visual aids and a more complex dm the results are different.

Long range hits are possible in the other but more rare. This being the case you cant really assume that Ahrs have more "skillz". Theres as many playing the others any night as are playing ah.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #230 on: August 14, 2003, 11:58:13 AM »
Hi Kweassa,

>If there was a smoke trail left behind by US .50s, wouldn't that provide some type of relative, general info on whether they are shooting "longer"(smoke travels over the target) or "shorter"(smoke travels under the target)?

Well, I've never found any veteran commenting on the smoke trail :-) The absence of comments makes me speculate that smoke - as so often - merely was the inevitable byproduct of fire.

From a visual perspective, I'd say if the tracers themselves weren't good enough, their smoke trails weren't any better.

We're talking about smoke from a few grams of chemicals here, distributed over maybe a kilometer length. Probably the only way to see it at all was to look through the "cloud" length-wise, and even then the tracer was still visible at the end, proving it was much more intense than the smoke.

(The absence of comments on smoke trails extends to the target side, too.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #231 on: August 14, 2003, 12:11:39 PM »
Hi Batz,

>Look at AH 6 foot like sabre tracer. Then watch all the films and you will none of it looks like that.

The problem with crossing tracers is that in real life, you perceive them as bright spots moving smoothly and quickly. (This is an illusion created by the marvellous brain evolution provided you with, but it's very realistic :-)

If you have a computer screen, normal frame rates would make such a small bright spot appear to stutter its way across the screen. A cinematographic frame would have the tracers recorded as dimmer extended line of even brightness because it moved across the frame during the exposure time.

The Aces High tracer with the faded ends looks like a 4 foot light sabre that moved 2 feet during the exposure time :-) Probably the result of some compromises!

I'd bet it looks better from behind the guns, though :-)

(And a philosopical aside: How realistic can "photorealism" be when our brains don't work like cine cameras at all? :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #232 on: August 14, 2003, 11:52:39 PM »
Bias is present in everyone's view. The line of tracer coming in from the left side of the "shooter" in that second clip looks a lot like the line of tracer I get when I shoot in AH. Just tried to snap shot it in the DA but it really has to be on film to compare. Anyway, YMMV. Looks pretty close to me.

And what I said about your combination of issues is that IMO some are clearly valid, like unnecessary range counters where you don't need it, some are somewhat valid like the "hybrid round" (after all, as HoHun said, they fiddled with velocity to get the various rounds to "group" together so it shouldn't be that much of a factor and as Tony said the Hispano round weights and BC's are closer than the LW ones so that ameliorates it a bit as well) and some don't take into account the play style in the MA and are not really a factor at all (go ahead, guess).

Feel free to differ in your opinion.

Played around with tracer on/off tonite a while in the DA. It may just be me but I seem to shoot about as well one way as the other. I take the same shots too. Be interesting to run a test on that with "average" shooters and see what happens.

Jump to specific issues? No, I reply to you and you reply to me and all the issues eventually get discussed. That's sort of how discussions work.

The last mention of HT is referenced to Kweassa, not you. Kweassa may hope for some things, but the recent quote of HT by Westy should pretty well cure him of all hope. ;) (In General Discussion)



"The visual aids in ah aid long range gunnery."

No kidding. That's why they're in there.

Now, some, like range counters are overdone. Some, like tracer or hybrid rounds are a factor but the question is just how big a factor. Others don't have much to do with it.

But at the bottom of it all is the fact that no one can deny that the rounds easily go past 1k with plenty of energy to do damage.

:D



















Put that in to make your morning.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #233 on: August 15, 2003, 08:45:14 PM »
Just as much no one was much worried of getting shot down over 400, 500 meters distance in real life, and such ballistics were never even a considerable issue to each forces of the war..

Quote
By the way, the function of the British range-compensated sight was explained to Milch on a pre-war visit of an RAF airfield by Dowding himself. That the Luftwaffe didn't duplicate the system shows that they didn't consider trajectory curvature an issue. - Hohun


 ..


Quote
No kidding. That's why they're in there.


 And that's why this, otherwise a terrific game, always leaves a part of its customers in discontent. All the "bullshi*" claims, and fights, disruption between "Allied fan-boys" and "LuftWhiners", people whining about Nikis and Spits.. what's the common factor?

 The gunnery factor. Like the one I met just yesterday, got puckered by a .50 round at 900 yards on my FE. Got curious, so I asked the shooter.. 820yards on his FE, he confirms. In a slow-wise jink too..

 
 
 ..

 Anyhow, I think all things that needs to be said have been already said. Btw, where is this "quite" in the General Discussions? I can't seem to find it...

 Anyhow, I think we can let the matters lie until the next claim comes up on how AH gunnery is either bullshi* or problematic, which I guarantee, as long as such ahistoric kills occur so often, will come up again.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #234 on: August 15, 2003, 08:59:19 PM »
HT quotes:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=941314#post941314

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Like the one I met just yesterday, got puckered by a .50 round at 900 yards on my FE. Got curious, so I asked the shooter.. 820yards on his FE, he confirms. In a slow-wise jink too....

... as long as such ahistoric kills occur so often, will come up again.


Hit or shot down? (What's "puckered"?) Previous damage or undamaged? First ping(s) or "last straws"?

It's only a very small group that even mentions it. I think that's the underlying theme of HT's remarks.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #235 on: August 15, 2003, 09:08:47 PM »
Previously undamaged.

 He shot at me couple of times at 500~600, but missed, he stopped shooting, and I pulled away to 900 on my FE. Then the tracers started flying again - typical desperation spray.

 Disgusted, I go into a slow jink, since the guy behind was a Spit9, and I was a 109G-2.. I'm not a speed demon, so can't afford to lose E.

 Then, one audible hit, and one elevator and fuel punctured, guy chased me down until fuel ran dry and shot me down.

 ..

 On the quotes..

 Gee, how's he gonna make an exciting, dogfighting oriented game when people don't have to go in close to fight anyone?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #236 on: August 15, 2003, 10:17:23 PM »
So then presumably you got hit with 2 20mm rounds at ~850 yards. How many did he shoot?

One of these caused a fuel leak that eventually led to you running out of gas and being killed at much shorter range, right?

Will a 20mm round go 850 yards?

If it hits a fuel tank, will it probably make it leak?

:D

From those quotes it looks like HT made the decision though, doesn't it?

That's why I quit discussing Icons/Range with him. Decision's made. Hope I didn't dash your hopes. ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #237 on: August 16, 2003, 09:36:31 AM »
Let's try and stay at the 'frequentness' line. You're drifting to the 'possibility' line again.


 Besides, he wasn't a n00b, Toad. One of those better pilots in the MA. Thus, it is true his gunner made a difference. The closest he came near me was about 550. He gave a few shots, thought he could close the gap more, but that didn't happen. Then, as I pulled further, 900 on my FE, he started shooting, and within three tracers passing by he scored a hit.

 So, what do you think the odds are if he attempted to just fire away at 600?

 ..


 The real point I want to emphasize, as always, is the 'frequentness'.
 
 What would you do when you see a bogey teensey bit faster than your P-51, and slowly furthering the distance at 500 yards?

 Will you:

a) Give up, since it would be a waste of ammo
b) Give a burst, but don't really expect to be able to hit him, since he's so "far away"
c) Give a burst, knowing you can kill him, without too much waste of ammo

 ..

 I'd bet you'd choose (c). Wouldn't you?

 ..

 How about this? Let's cut the crap and go straight to the point. Two questions:

1) Are you prepared to deny the claimed fact that shooting over 300 meters' range in real life, was ineffective and undesirable?

2) Are you prepared to deny the fact that kills over 300~400 yards is frequent in AH, and ranges upto 400~500 yards are almost a confirmed 'kill range' for planes armed with .50s and Hispanos?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #238 on: August 16, 2003, 10:27:59 AM »
Quote
Let's try and stay at the 'frequentness' line. You're drifting to the 'possibility' line again.


LOL! Yeah, let's stick with the only possible argument you have, no matter how "unprovable" it is. You sure don't want to get into "possibility" here because then you have no argument at all. It's CLEARLY possible. Even you have to admit that!

Anyway, Sure, I'll play another round! Why not!

500 yards and slowly opening? I will absolutely give him a "good burst" for several reasons.

1. Yes, I can hit at 500 yards in AH, ESPECIALLY on someone that is not making any evasives (ie: dead straight) or only maneuvering slightly. These guys are just fooling themselves that they're getting away; don't evade, you'll die. The game is set up that way. Now, out around 700-800, light evasives will protect you; time of flight gets long enough.

3. I can hit with or without tracer on at that range (500) and I'm pretty sure I don't need range either, but I can't turn that off.

3. Using .50's, I have no hybrid rounds to worry about to any extent.

4. Don't need to worry about hit flashes either. In this situation, I just hold where I think I'll hit, hold the trigger down and slowly increase lead during the burst. Best way to get some hits, tracer on or off.

Without ammo counters, I'd shoot anyway, until the guns went dry.

Then I'd either auger for a new plane or possibly rtb; but I don't play for score. I'd only rtb to deny someone a kill, like if the extender had pinged me, I wouldn't auger, I'd rtb. See, the fights and the kills are the "thing" for me. I hate to admit it, but I don't think I'm actually reliving those thrilling days of yesteryear when I play.

5. There's always a chance the guy will turn around an fight OR he'll do a big E burning evasive that will allow me to close the gap. I'll waste some ammo on that chance. I like the fights, not the chases.


Now, you're going to make the case that in WW2 REAL LIFE this just didn't happen. I'll simply point out that those guys didn't have range finders that read down to the yard with 0% chance of error. If they had and the yardage was shown on their guncam film, then you'd have an unimpeachable case for your argument because you'd KNOW what range they shot at then. But, as it is, you basically have anecdotal information on kill ranges, ie: "I opened fire about 200 yards". Now, do you swear by anecdotal pilot information on aircraft performance? Would you support anecdotal sources being used to program IL2's aircraft performance?



1) Are you prepared to deny the claimed fact that shooting over 300 meters' range in real life, was ineffective and undesirable?

I'd say shooting over 300 meters in WW2 aerial combat was less effective than it is here and it was most certainly undesirable to miss due to the RL constraints on the mission. IE: they couldn't land at a field, rearm and be back in the fight in 15 minutes except in "Battle of Britain" type situations.



2) Are you prepared to deny the fact that kills over 300~400 yards is frequent in AH, and ranges upto 400~500 yards are almost a confirmed 'kill range' for planes armed with .50s and Hispanos?

Yep, 300-400 yard kills are frequent in AH. 400-5000 are relatively frequent for most airplanes, regardless of gun set.

Now, your turn.

Are you prepared to deny the fact that all of these rounds will easily travel farther than 600 yards with more than enough kinetic and/or chemical energy to damage an aluminum aircraft?

Are you prepared to deny the fact that HT has made his intent clear regarding fun vs realism?

Are you prepared to deny the fact that HT has chosen fun over realism?

Lastly, despite your long campaign, are you prepared to deny the fact that it's pretty clear that HT isn't going to make the changes you desire? Are you prepared to deny the fact that if it's 300 yard kills you desire, you'd best just play IL2?


:D
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 10:31:11 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline hazed-

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #239 on: August 16, 2003, 10:28:46 AM »
I think the whole discussion is mute. HTC have already told us they have improved the gunnery/Damage model for AH2.

If I know HTC I know one thing, they have a habit of saying nothing about any intended change until it happens. We see bickering Threads on the subjects which continue with lots of unecessary emotional outbursts until the very day AH changes it.

For instance the F4U overuse problem, We all complained and all the supposed 'in the know' types told us we were whining and HTC wouldnt change it etc. Then suddenly it was changed. People seemed to be satisfied with the new setup, the complaints ceased, and funnily enough so did those same 'in the know' bull* artists claims. :)

Thats the whole point and we should all learn to cope with the silence. HTC unfortunately gives very little if anything away about their intentions.We all put our ideas or gripes down in this BB and some are listened to while others are disgarded as unecessary by HTC. If your gripe was a genuine one 9 times out of 10 it actually appears in the next patch as a fix. The P38 tail, the 190 engine bug, the angle of the rockets for Wr21 being raised, changes to objects hardness, armour model for the ground vehicles, the call for more bombers in a formation, etc etc. HTC does fix things which people complain of but we just have to wait until the patch to see if they agree.
In the meantime the bickering on the subject continues

Personally I think a lot of it could be stopped by a few words given out by HTC, and im often quite bemused as to why they dont say a few words. Maybe they have learned that you cant always deliver in the programme exactly what you would like to. Sometimes the model falls short in an area. Well rather than it appear a failed attempt by promising it would be added and not delivering, its better to quietly TRY to fix it, then if successfull, ANNOUNCE it. Its just better practice to do it that way.

I have a feeling HTC agrees with kweassa on some levels and are no doubt hoping their next damage model will reflect real life even more closely. Perhaps this will include the lowering of lethality of guns at long ranges? who knows? We will find out when AH2 arrives.

In the meantime lets not attack kweassa for saying what we all know is quite true. The fact that gunnery in aircombat was a lot more difficult than it is at present in this GAME. We can choose to reflect real life and make it exceptionally hard, possibly alienating half of their player base OR they can seek a compromise, where its still FUN to try to shoot each other but the model APPEARS to act in a way that seems real. HTC have a hard ballance to atttain. It must be a huge pain in the bellybutton :) lol

well thats all i can say about it oh and batz makes a fine point above too, sorry only read a portion of entire thread and read you late. Good points on the DM and visual aids. I think your dead right there.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 10:37:39 AM by hazed- »