Author Topic: Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down! (Read 2451 times)

Puke · « **Reply #75 on:** August 15, 2003, 06:22:35 PM »

AKAK,

Take a P-51 and go try it. Film is worth much more than words. However, you are absolutely by no means representative of the average to below average player in here.

Anyway, the George will just point his nose straight up and head-on you when you try and dive on him. That's just their breed.

Steve · « **Reply #76 on:** August 15, 2003, 06:33:48 PM »

AKAK, you definitely could do that. IMHO, this tends to end up in a more lengthy fight though unless you are dealing w/ 2 rookies.
In a 51 at least, I've found that corralling them leads to ending the fight quicker.

humble · « **Reply #77 on:** August 18, 2003, 03:29:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
With people believing that load of crap, no wonder why there's a horde of timid, limp wristed players in AH with absolutely no understanding or even knowledge of what ACM is and how to use it.

Ack-Ack

Probably not the best wording...but I'll stand by the comment. Give me a single ACM that will defeat a nikki in a pony. Now a pony should never lose to a co-e Nikki (in theory) and can use correct tactics to continually attack the nikki (E or B&Z). The pony needs to accuire a positive E position and exploit it...I dont consider that ACM...maybe I'm wrong.

Sable · « **Reply #78 on:** August 18, 2003, 04:53:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Probably not the best wording...but I'll stand by the comment. Give me a single ACM that will defeat a nikki in a pony. Now a pony should never lose to a co-e Nikki (in theory) and can use correct tactics to continually attack the nikki (E or B&Z). The pony needs to accuire a positive E position and exploit it...I dont consider that ACM...maybe I'm wrong.

So if you are in the less manueverable but faster aircraft, flying it to your advantage is not ACM? What are you supposed to do .. break hard and then once he's on your 6 pray to god he doesn't know how to scissor? What rubbish.

humble · « **Reply #79 on:** August 18, 2003, 05:22:37 PM »

again wording isnt right somehow...but point was pretty simple...good tactics isn't really ACM. The pony can & should simply use alt & E to pick away at the nikki. Obviously the better choice is to use the vertical but maintain "contact" in an E fight. If you look up toward top of this page I posted a similiar type of fight. Was smart flying...obviously frustrating for the nikki...he never got shot and I got him on 1 shot after 5 min or so of flying....guess you could call it ACM...I'd label it as tactics...I used bunch of different ACM to maintain angles/E/vertical seperation and tease him into a shot solution. Only real ACM was the merge...I gave him a bad nose down shot and he bit...followed by a zoom to spiral climb where he topped out at about 800 below me....15 sec of "ACM" followed by 4 1/2 min of reeling him in.

Steve · « **Reply #80 on:** August 18, 2003, 05:24:55 PM »

Although simplistic in it's design, couldn't a spiral climb be considered ACM? I said simplistic in design, exectution is another matter.
Sure anyone can spiral, but knowing your opponent's E-state(and yours) and his plane's capabilities, then translating that into how tightly or loosely you spiral, and when to drop on your opponent are very different things. Also, Puke mentioned that a niki will nose up and HO you while you dive on him. If you spiral, and correctly judge when he can no longer lift his nose up/around, you can drop down on his canopy/tail instead of getting a face full of Jap rounds. No offense but, anyone spiraling that gets Ho'd either doesn't fully understand how to execute a spiral rope or has misjudged his opponent's E state. I myself still occasionally underestimate a pilot's ability to hang on his nose and either get a facial or have to evade. AKAK himself caught me at this once. Live(or die in this case) and learn. A little adjustment in my approach angle off the spiral and I was fine from then on.

hogenbor · « **Reply #81 on:** August 19, 2003, 05:37:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Puke
AKAK,

Take a P-51 and go try it. Film is worth much more than words. However, you are absolutely by no means representative of the average to below average player in here.

Anyway, the George will just point his nose straight up and head-on you when you try and dive on him. That's just their breed.

That was the whole point in the first place

humble · « **Reply #82 on:** August 19, 2003, 12:46:11 PM »

Steve,

I agree with you completely...execution not the tactic or ACM is usually the point that seperates the victor from the fluttering wreckage. In a knife fight ACM combinations often dicate the outcome vs pure ability to "fly the edge". In an E fight Drex's "3 dimensional geometry" combined with ACM go a long way to determining the outcome. I think that some match ups simply come down to experience and patience more than anything else. I view the nikki vs pony fight as one of these.

My intent in the original comment was to imply what you stated much more clearly...it's the execution and timing of a BFM not the use of a more complex ACM thats key here. Your managing the fight not outflying the bogie to win.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #83 on:** August 19, 2003, 02:17:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
My intent in the original comment was to imply what you stated much more clearly...it's the execution and timing of a BFM not the use of a more complex ACM thats key here. Your managing the fight not outflying the bogie to win.

When you're managing the fight, you're basically out flying the other guy.

Basic flight maneuvers will never win you any fights. No matter the style of fighting or the dogfighting tactics employed, there is always an ACM element to them. Dogfighting with only BFM would be just flying around and enjoying the sights.

ack-ack

humble · « **Reply #84 on:** August 20, 2003, 12:23:01 PM »

ack-ack....

Obviously we're approaching the same place from different directions. Your definitions of ACM are probably more accurate than mine. However, back when I was a trainer one of the things I noticed most was that even the more "advanced" beginners or intermediate sticks didnt understand alot of the "fundementals".

I'll give you three quick examples:

1) The value and role of a lead turn in a merge....to me thats a BFM...the tactics that lead to vertical and lateral seperation and a corresponding gain in angles is really what you teach.

2) Using yoyo's on the deck in an end game stall fight...to me thats true ACM at it's best

3) Neg E/alt merges that induce a low % "nose down" shot by con and either set up a nice shot on overshhot (requires ACM) or allow for an extension and decrease in cons advantage on remerge (BFM).

My whole original reply wassimply trying to clarify that a pony driver is going to need to out think...not "outfly" the nikki driver. I think since your a 38 driver thats second nature...nobody does well in a 38 just yanking on the stick:)

Flossy · « **Reply #85 on:** August 20, 2003, 02:58:36 PM »

I finally made the 'pissed somebody off for shooting them down' club a few nights ago.

I was in a formation of Lancasters and saw an enemy fighter (Niki I think) coming towards my low 12. I jumped in the nose gun and got some hits on it, then jumped to the tail. By now he was on my high 6 and turned to drop down to my low 6, and I followed him down, blasting away - and killed him.

Next thing I know, I am being accused of cheating (well, granted, not in so many words) but he commented on the fact my guns were (or appeared to be to him) shooting straight down!

Hehe, it was fun.

Steve · « **Reply #86 on:** August 20, 2003, 03:03:34 PM »

Hhhehehe. Those Lancs do seem to have a pretty good degree of down angle they can reach.. wtg Flossy.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #87 on:** August 20, 2003, 05:41:48 PM »

I too have noticed the extreme downward angle the tail guns seem able to achieve in the Lancaster. Almost makes up for the lack of a ball turret.

WTG Flossy, nice kill.

ack-ack

MJHerman · « **Reply #88 on:** August 22, 2003, 12:53:30 PM »

Three amusing situations recently happened to me.

#1. Since I'm not very good at AH I tend to fly planes that are fast and BnZ an awful lot. My SA just sucks, so turn fighting gets me dead real quick. Anyway, up in a Runstang with only 25% (field fuel porked as usual) and head off for what appears to be a good fight over an enemy (Bish or Rook, can't remember) field about 1.5 sectors away. Climb out to 10K plus.
Arriving over the field there is a good Knight vs. Bish/Rook fight going on at about 5K, with fairly even numbers. Most of the fight is concentrated over or around the field, but a Knight Spit and an enemy LA7 are off to the side a bit going around and around in circles. LA7 is gaining the advantage, and finally latches on to the Spits tail at maybe 1.2 out. Spit and LA7 are coming towards me, my 10 o'clock or so.
Always being the one to help out a friend, I dive in on their 1v1 fight with the original idea of just forcing the LA7 to break off the Spit (i.e., fire a couple of tracers his way). Turns out that after my dive I end up on his 9:30 or so, 350 out, so I let him have it. Stitched the plane from cowl to tail as he goes by, and get a quick kill. Zooming back up I get a message on channel 1 to the effect of:

1. I HO'd him and that wasn't "fair" - Sorry, thought HO was at 12:00, but anyway.

2. I "ruined" his fight with the Spit.

#2. Fuel was low, and make awful gunnery soon depleted by ammo load within a couple of minutes following #1 above. So I gain some alt. and start heading back at maybe 10K, with one "tick" on the fuel tank and maybe 100-175 rounds of .50 cal. Along comes an LA7 at my 12:00 o'clock, at 15K or so, heading right at me. I keep on eye on him, but I don't have the fuel or ammo to fight so I immediately decide that I will run if he engages, knowing that a good pilot will be good in the merge, and I'm probably dead anyway.

LA7 dives in, tries an HO (started firing at 1.0!!!!). I roll to evade and dive for the deck. He must have burned a lot of E in his reversal because he isn't gaining on me. I keep checking my 6 to see how far out he is, and it slowly, very slowly starts counting down from 1.6. It gets to 1.3 and then starts opening up again. At 2.2, a message comes over channel 1:

1. I wasted his time/fuel/whatever because I wouldn't engage. True enough, but not sure why he kept chasing me for 5 minutes. The only option I may have had to "engage" would have been an HO/ram, at which point I'm sure I would have heard another comment.

#3. Start a co-alt fight with a F4U in my Runstang. We go on and about for maybe a minute or so in what was actually a pretty good 1v1 fight. I resist the temptation to HO him, and he does the same, so I figure we have a gentlemen's agreement for this fight and that we are going to play "fair". Neither of us really gets any good shots throughout, but on one merge he comes right at me and starts spraying from 800 or so. And misses. Next merge same thing. And misses. Again. And misses. During all of this I continue to abide by what I thought was our gentlemen's agreement, and I don't return fire head on. On the next merge I see 2 of his buddies show up, 4.5 out and closing. He comes at me again head on and fires. This time I fire back, gets some hits, check my six, and see a chute. Channel 1 reveals:

1. Something to the effect of "Nice HO 51...try some ACM next time."

Huh?

Zanth · « **Reply #89 on:** August 22, 2003, 01:23:55 PM »

^ sounds like MA in Aces High all right

Squelch channel one or run gamma for channel one all the way dim (you can still see messages if you really really need to - easy to ignore at same time.)