Author Topic: Combat Trim - To Use or Not To Use, That is the Question (Read 1964 times)

-ammo- · « **Reply #45 on:** October 29, 2000, 01:01:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Daff:
I've read several accounts, in particular from P-40 and P-51 pilots, where they changed trim during the manuever.
Also, it was the norm to leave the throttle against the firewall.

Daff

I would like to see the references you used for these statements please.

ammo

Daff · « **Reply #46 on:** October 29, 2000, 03:46:00 PM »

Sure,

"Thunderbolt!" Robert S. Johnson
"Gabby, A fighter pilots life" Francis Gabreski
"Dancing in the Skies" Tony Johnson
"Beware of the Thunderbolt" (Got that book at work, can't remember the author)
"Zemke's Wolfpack" Hubert Zemke
There's also several discussion on the issues in
"Report of Joint Fighter Conference; NAS Patuxent River, MD, 16-23 Oct. 1944"

Now..do you have any references that say the opposite?

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Toad · « **Reply #47 on:** October 29, 2000, 08:45:00 PM »

Daff,

Can you post any paragraphs that explained how they got guys to overshoot in a scissors using the trim wheel?

Seems I recall you mentioning you had some flying time, so you know that trim in any axis is a secondary flight control. Further, you know that many of these WW2 aircraft didn't have 3 axis trim..some didn't even have 2 axis trim. Beyond that, you know that all these cockpit designs ergonomically favor one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle quadrant; they are carefully designed that way. Further, any study of WW2 cockpit trim wheel placement shows that the trim wheels usually are not as easily accessible as the throttle/prop controls.

No one is saying that "No one ever trimmed in combat". I'm sure some did spin in a quick turn or two.

But "one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle" is and was the normal way to fight....and you know it.

Maniac · « **Reply #48 on:** October 30, 2000, 08:07:00 AM »

Ok sure combat trim is not an easy mode. BUT since 1.04 the AC´s are very easy to fly. I dont like this.

Regards.

------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

Andy Bush · « **Reply #49 on:** October 30, 2000, 03:53:00 PM »

Daff

>>Now..do you have any references that say the opposite?<<

You didn't give references, only book titles.

It seems your info comes from what you read. Good, but only to a point. It would be more credible if you had actual flight time.

Some of us do. Like Toad and me. In fighters. And we're trying to tell you that what you are inferring is wrong. Trim is not routinely used in air combat maneuvering. The pilot keeps his hands on the throttle and stick most of the time. Since trim only relieves stick and rudder loads, when those loads become significant (in a dogfight) the normal response is to hold the pressure and not fool around with the trim.

Why? Because the airspeed change (or throttle change in the case of piston engined fighters) that caused the trim change is only going to be transitory.

A fighter is a fighter is a fighter...WW1, WW2, or today...no one with any brains flys around a full throttle all the time.

I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm...but, please a little less bull-headedness unless you have the flight time to back it up.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 10-30-2000).]

Daff · « **Reply #50 on:** October 30, 2000, 04:22:00 PM »

Sorry, I dont have any sticktime in a WW2 fighter. (Trainer, yes, fighter no).
(And I really dont think you can compare a 2000hp WW2 fighter with a 2-300hp trainer).

As for bullheadeness, I only replied in the manner I was asked.
As for leaving the throttle wide open in a scissor..please dont take it that literally...but I'll still stand by that most of the combat took place with the throttle wide open.

"Why? Because the airspeed change (or throttle change in the case of piston engined fighters) that caused the trim change is only going to be transitory."

You're still forgetting the stickforces involved and the speedranges. With your average aerobat, you're working within 0-150 knots..they were working with 150-400+mph.

I *really* recommend reading the report from the Joint Fighter Conference. It gives a very good picture of what kind of enviroment a WW2 cockpit was, especially compared to the modern ones we have today.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Andy Bush · « **Reply #51 on:** October 30, 2000, 06:25:00 PM »

Daff

>>You're still forgetting the stickforces involved and the speedranges. With your average aerobat, you're working within 0-150 knots..they were working with 150-400+mph.<<

I'm not forgetting anything. My experience in knife fights that ranged from 0 knots to 700knots+ is that trim was not used with regularity. The intensity of a close-in, very highly dynamic angles fight is such that trimming is one of the last things that I or anyone else had time to think about.

As for throttle control in a scissors...it depends on the type of scissors. In the classic horizontal scissors, once the two adversaries are fully engaged (meaning comparable energy states), then it is typical to be at full throttle. On the other hand, in a descending rolling scissors, where gravity is providing a measure of energy retention, the throttle may well be in idle.

My experience in high angle of attack, slow speed maneuvering ranges from the Piper Cub to the F-104. With regard to trim changes and its effect on stick feel, I don't consider the subject to be of special significance.

Here it is in a nutshell. We take the airplane and we put it where we want it. How 'heavy' or 'light' the stick may feel is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the maneuver.

Andy

Toad · « **Reply #52 on:** October 30, 2000, 07:05:00 PM »

Andy,

I know you're right. You know you're right. That may be the best we can hope for.

Maybe Daff will share his stick time/type experience with us. He may have some insights we lack.

Daff · « **Reply #53 on:** October 31, 2000, 04:05:00 AM »

Heh..not very much

.
A couple of hours on a Yak52, another couple in a Pitts S2A, 10 or so in DH82a and 70 odd in a Beagle Pup.
The only plane of those that remotely resembles a WW2 fighter, is the Yak52. (Radial, yummy.)...and it certainly also have the stickforces

.
Full aileron deflection takes two hands and you'll very quickly get very large thigh muscles from the rudder.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Dowding · « **Reply #54 on:** October 31, 2000, 09:58:00 AM »

Got a couple of questions. I never manually trimmed in 1.03 and I leave CT on in 1.04. This is because:

a) I haven't really got a clue what use trimming is.

I understand that you can trim an aircraft to fly at a particular pitch or level, so the pilot has to put less input in to the flight controls. Do you use it in combat to gain more movement in your control surfaces (i.e. turn sharper, reach a climb angle more quickly)?

b) I don't have enough buttons on my joystick as it is, without trying to add more functions!

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]

Andy Bush · « **Reply #55 on:** October 31, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »

Dowding

There are two questions here...(1) what is trim?...and (2) how is trim set up in Aces High?

This is a real world versus simulation issue. I imagine you are only interested in the sim.

In AH, trim is modeled in all three axes (pitch, roll, and yaw). Keyboard commands allow the pilot to adjust the axis settings, usually as function of airspeed or engine power setting. The objective is to adjust the settings until the aircraft remains stable in pitch, roll, and yaw (regardless of actual aircraft attitude). This means the aircraft can be trimmed for a climb or descent as well as level flight.

The Combat Trim option is basically an 'auto-trimmer' that removes much of the pilot workload in adjusting trim settings as airspeed and power changes.

Some like Combat Trim, some don't...I think the jury is still out on the subject! It is quite possible that the advanced player will get a better response in some parts of the flight envelope when using a manual trim set-up.

There have been quite a few discussions on this matter. Do a forum search here and in the Help And Training Forum under the subject 'trim' for more info. August and September were particularly active.

If you need any more help, let me know.

Andy

easymo · « **Reply #56 on:** October 31, 2000, 11:47:00 AM »

Andy does Fighter Ace have a more realistic FM then?

Andy Bush · « **Reply #57 on:** October 31, 2000, 01:41:00 PM »

easymo

I don't know...I've never tried Fighter Ace.

I'm not in the 'gotta have a perfect FM' group of players. As long as the FM is reasonable, then I'm happy.

Of course, it all depends on what the word 'reasonable' means. It's sorta like that old saying about obscenity..."I don't know what it is, but I'll know it when I see it!!"

For example, the A-10 FM in Janes USAF. Now that's 'unreasonable'!!

As for AH, I'm quite happy with its FM. And most everything else for that matter. (I just wish it had a good 'player to target' external view...but that's another issue!!)

Andy

Westy · « **Reply #58 on:** October 31, 2000, 01:59:00 PM »

"I just wish it had a good 'player to target' external view... "

Slim Pickens MODE!!!!

I second that.

-Westy

Badboy · « **Reply #59 on:** October 31, 2000, 05:23:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by easymo:
Andy does Fighter Ace have a more realistic FM then?

Hi Easymo,

That's an interesting question and from what I see in in threads, there are probably even more misguided ideas relating to realistic flight modeling than there are about combat trim

To answer your question though, at this point in time I believe AH leads the field by a significant margin.

Badboy