Toad:
Geeh, you read a lot into my post that isn't there.
Well, first let's all agree to one historical fact: The Hispano was a higher muzzle velocity, higher mass, lower trajectory projectile. We CAN agree to that, can't we?
Please show me where I have ever suggested otherwise?
It SHOULD do better than the Mg151 and the difference WILL be even MORE noticable as range increases. That is just ballistic fact.
Please show me where I've claimed it should not. In fact, I've actively said it does. See my comment about lethal range of the two guns.
Now, if you feel the Mg151 or the Hispano is incorrectly modeled, send your reliable, FACTUAL data to Pyro, not me.
My main beef is not with the Hispano guns, but with the difference in kill stats between the C and D hog. I claim it is caused largely by cannons, since the FM alone cannot make up that huge a difference. Do you agree or disagree with this?
I've stated indirectly that the German Mauser is inferior to the Hispano, and you seem to agree. Good.
As to the current AH leathality, I refer you to Dinger's tests that essentially showed (in AH anyway) it takes 10% more Mg151 hits to do the same damage as Hispano hits. Once again, I refer you to the first part of this post and if you disagree, send your data to Pyro. I find that pretty reasonable, however.
Hm, well, I *could* argue that on fighters, the reverse should be true; the Hispanos carry AP rounds (AFAIK), the Mauser HE ones. On lightly armed targets, such as the fuselage, wings and to some extent engine of a fighter, HE should cause more damage on average. Not counting shots that go through one end of the plane from the rear and exit (or nearly) through the engine. But this is not my point, and I've not argued that the Mauser guns should be more lethal. Well, until now.
This "+10%" is almost EXACTLY correct in the TA testing that I have done, tests with Mandoble included. It always took just one or two more "hit flashes" with the Mg151 than it did with the Hispano to remove a B-17 wing, or to match any other damage on aircraft.
The ability to do it from far out in relative safety is what differentiates the two. And of course ROF.
Out to 900 yards in the current version, this relationship remains true. Simply put, 10 Hispano hits = 11 Mg 151 hits out to 900 yards (assuming you put them all in about the same places).
Not disupting this; what I am arguing is that it is a good deal easier to get hits at 900 yards with the Hispanos. You support this. Hits at 900 with mausers are very rare. The times I've test flown Hispano equipped aircraft, I've been surprised by the relative ease one can score long range hits. Again, not saying anything about modelling, but the relative differences of the two guns.
Now, show me otherwise, in a repeatable test. I'll cheerfully send Grapevine a month's money for you.
I would,
if I was arguing that. Since I am not, I won't.
As far as snapshots, one major factor is the visibility difference. The F4 has much, much better viz than the FW, a major factor in a deflection shot. Secondarily, the "lob" trajectory of the Mg 151 complicates a snapshot as well.
Hm, well, I don't mind having the target obscured by my engine; I know where the enemy is going and only rarely does he have the time to evade my lead. I think the main difference is the trajectory and range of the guns.
Once again, you don't need to convince ME that something is wrong with your beloved gun's rof/trajectory/leathality/bluing color/powder smell or anything else. You need to convince PYRO.
Since I am not arguing this, why would I?
Not sure where you got the idea, or non sequitor, or red herring, or straw man from.
Remember gentlemen, I questioned Pyro on the anti-armor capability of the Mg 151 too. I want it "historically correct" as much as you do. While he didn't change that, he did at least say his piece on the subject.
Me too. But I think he did *something* to the Mausres; Before 1.03, I could kill tanks in the FW190A-8, with guns. Now, I cannot. Which is the way it should be.
Am looking forward to getting a tank buster LW plane.
What I have said in this thread about the Hispanos is this:
"The cannons are the main difference between succces and failure amongst F4UC dweebs; without the capability to get One Ping Kills, they scatter and die with great ease. Sobbing, they run back to their cannon armed abberation to get mommy to help out."
That and
"Heh, the c hog is a vulchers dream; one ping HO monster."
A HO with a 190A8 loaded with 30mm is also a One Ping story. I use the term not literally, but rather in the way of "in a very short duration of time, very big pain will be inflicted on you, and you will not have a snowballs chance in hell to live through it". Hope this clarifies it. Maybe I should use the term Instant Death(tm) instead, as I did once.
If this isn't a tongue in cheek comment, I am not sure what is
So, put a sock in it!
Heh, if you stop buliding and knocking down strawmen
If you take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, I will help ram that sock so far up your behind you'll feel the wool in your mouth.
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
