Least popular planes...

[Stiglr]

This simply tells me that the earlier war planeset needs to be fleshed out, and needs its own environment, devoid of Ueberplanes, to shine.

No early war plane is going to do anything but DIE, on average, vs the speedy late war ueber planes. It's just technological progress manifesting itself.

Let's see what happens if you allow a early-mid war planeset in an arena, exclusively, or one of the new terrains to stir things up.

[RAM]

Just one question for Pyro...

Pretty PLEASE can you tell us the ammo modelled for the hispanos?...because:

-If it is AP then AA rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE

-If it is HE then AG rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE

-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.
And if it is APHE then why does one single ping of Hispano ALWAYS damage something on a fighter?--------------------->sometimes it would be AP not HE so sometimes there would be less damage with AP than with HE.

What I believe is that now we have a mixed AP/HE...ON A SINGLE ROUND!. So each round is an armor piercing HE. I dont know the existance of such ammo for hispanos in WWII.


Of course I can be wrong.

[Toad]

Ram,

From Gameplay feedback/issues, Tank busting Spitfires.....

Pyro said:

"As for the question of different types of rounds, we'll probably only do those for large caliber weapons with low rates of fire. For high rate of fire weapons, we try to model the capabilities of the weapon in general based on the different ammo types used."

Bold type is mine to emphasize area of interest. That's about all I've ever seen on different ammo types. I'm not _exactly_ sure what it means but I think there's certainly a possibility you are right.


 


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]

[Vermillion]

 

-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.

Oh really, RAM?

Could you please share that "proof" with us?

I have an extensive library on American Aircraft, and have read quite a bit more, and I have never seen any evidence of this.

Please share.


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Pongo]

Statements like
"Prove to me the so and so is over modeled in AH" are silly.
Does anybody have the exact numbers that Pyro uses for each of these weapons and the tables that resolve the damage vs each type of aircraft?
Toad do you have that?
You dont. Pyro rightly does not release them. He would then have to defend in concrete every item, and every one with a new source would challenge them again.
So we are guessing.
You are guessing Toad.
Dont pretend otherwise. We are all just relateing our experiaces in the game vs what we may have gathered was the expected effect of a weapon in WW2. Because for the most part we dont have the real numbers from then either. Was a test done to establish that  X Hispano AP rounds where needed to destroy fighter A while X + Y Mg151/20 HE rounds where needed for the same fighter.
I dont think so. So what is the harm in discussing the percieved effect in the game vs the percieved effect in WW2?
That is all that happening here.
A real useful post from someone that insists on supporting the Status Quo in AH would be one that quotes a memoir or battle account of a LW or RAF pilot and even mentions that he even felt his guns where supperior or gave suppior engagment range in Air to Air combat.
I have been unable to find any such mention.
None.
Certainly the early hispano in this game was far to powerful air to air. If a weapon of that capability was introduced in WW2 it would have warrented mention. Like the Long Lance torpedo, The P51 over berlin, The Hellcat vs the Zero. Etc Etc. Weapons that have an impact like that would have been remembered. But it is increadably dificult to establish any historical reference for the effectiveness of the Hispano in AH.
The ballistic tables and the pictures of the rounds are undisputed. What was the effect of that in WW2. Could any one shoot at 1k? Did the rounds often punch through non critical areas instead of exploding in the structure?

Even with the advantage it offers now, the AH hispano would have left a historical foot print like the Long Lance at least. The work required to be able to kill at 700-900 yards  vs 300 - 500 yards is a huge advantage in air to air combat.

Why are people so offended by the discussion?

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
Just one question for Pyro...

Pretty PLEASE can you tell us the ammo modelled for the hispanos?...because:

-If it is AP then AA rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE

-If it is HE then AG rounds are WAY too powerful compared with Mauser's HE

-If it is APHE (mixed) then is UNREALISTIC as no C hogs carried that ammo load in WWII.
And if it is APHE then why does one single ping of Hispano ALWAYS damage something on a fighter?

I dont know about the 1c but the Mossie and Spit shure fired mixed loads in 44.

[Karnak]

MANDOBLE,
My apologies.  I took your post to mean that you thought that the Mg151/20 was improperly modeled because it had a harder time hitting than the Hispano MkII.

I think that the cannons hit close to as hard as one another, when striking aircraft, with the advantage going to the Hispano by about 10%.  However when we discuss effectiveness muzzle velocity/trajectory and rate of fire must also be discussed.  The muzzle velocity/trajectory  heavily favors the Hispano and while the Mg151/20 has a higher rate of fire, the Hispano is clearly at an advatage in striking other aircraft.

Sisu
-Karnak

[StSanta]

[/quote]
I really like the YAK.

Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
[/quote]
Heh, I noticed. Yesterday at A15, you really wanted me bad. I was extending as quickly as I could, ya had two or three friendlies on ya, but you still went for the suicide run.

Ya must have had tracers off, as my scissors weren't effective (couldn't see you open up).

Second time a YAK kills me. Annoying  



------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[-aper-]

Yak-9U's FM is very strange now.

I'd like to say that it's not Yak-9U but FW-190D9

Current Yak-9U has good speed, climb, acceleration and roll perfomance, but turns worse than FW-190A5. Sounds like Dora.
But if Yak-9U is modeled right then FW-190A5 certainly performs like Yak-3.

I prefer do not fly both Yak-9U and FW-190A5 until 1.04

[Toad]

Pongo,

What I've said is that after spending about 3 hours with Beemer in the TA (version 1.02) and nearly two hours with Mandoble (version 1.03) using both the FW and the F4U-1C against the same targets, at the same ranges, as both shooter and shootee and trying very hard to do everything EXACTLY the same....

I was unable to find any significant difference in the leathality or range between the two rounds in an air-to-air environment. My conclusion is that Dinger, in his testing had it about right. The Hispano is about 10% more lethal out to 930 yards. You can get hits with the Hispano out to about 980-1000 where the version 1.03 FW is unable to do that; there is a slight range difference ~50-70 yards.

That, sir, is ALL I have said.

That is based on TA testing that I personally have been involved in and is repeatable. I would be happy to repeat it with anyone that is interested.

As to most of the other comments, ROF, Trajectory, etc., I am on record as generally agreeing with the common perception, which happens to coincide with what we all apparently perceive to be historical fact.

I am totally for historical accuracy as best we can determine it for all aircraft/vehicles in this game.

What I asked is exactly contrary to your "prove to me the so and so is over modeled in AH".

What I actually said in that challenge is "show me that the lethality/range are significantly different." They aren't.

Trajectory, yes. ROF, yes. Leath?
+10%. Range?  About 60 yards.

That's what I said. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.




[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-09-2000).]

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
... and while the Mg151/20 has a higher rate of fire

The Mg151/20 "alone" has a higer rate of fire, agree. But we have synchronized Mg151/20 here, and the ROF drops a lot.

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

Trajectory, yes. ROF, yes. Leath?
+10%. Range?  About 60 yards.

Toad, it seems you are refering to the lethality of a single bullet. The lethality of a gun is the sum of trayectory, ROF, range, muz vel, round lethality itself, etc.

IMO, the overal lethality of Mg151/20 is about 50% of the Hispanos.

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:

[/quote]
Heh, I noticed. Yesterday at A15, you really wanted me bad. I was extending as quickly as I could, ya had two or three friendlies on ya, but you still went for the suicide run.

Ya must have had tracers off, as my scissors weren't effective (couldn't see you open up).

Second time a YAK kills me. Annoying  


LOL Santa....Yeah I did want to get you.  I was originally diving down to help a squadmate but you shot him down before I got there, so I just continued the attack run.

Yeah I did have tracers off.  I find it helps when flying the YAK, given its low ammo load.  I does not let the enemy know when you are firing.

I did manage to survive a little while longer after I got you, but not much longer...hehe

Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille


[/b][/QUOTE]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Toad, it seems you are refering to the lethality of a single bullet.

That is exactly what I am referring to. The leathality of the single projectile.

HTC probably has relatively good, historical numbers for ROF.

They probably have excellent historical numbers for Muzzle Velocity.

I'll wager ballistic trajectory requires a bit of a guess, simply because I'm betting Pyro does not have the exact ballistic coefficients for each projectile. While the equations for trajectory are available and indisputable...you have to have the correct BC. So, there may be some mirrors and black magic involved here but I don't believe there is any attempt at "favoritism"; just a lack of exact data and they have to do the best they can.

Now to the heart of the issue: individual projectile leathality. This is undoubtedly the greatest "it depends" in the entire "guns" issue.

It depends on the type of projectile (AP/HE)

It depends on range, particulary in the case of a simple non-explosive projectile. (Kinetic Energy)

It depends on where you hit the target. (Aileron fabric versus pilot's brain pan.)

It depends on how many rounds you put into one small area. (Saw through the main wing spar or just put one hole in it.)

It depends on how HTC built the damage model. (How many hits of what type in what area does it take to remove a wing under what G load.)

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

To me the greatest overall variable then is individual projectile leathality and the one for which there is ABSOLUTELY no way to get it "historically correct."

However, after 5 hours in the TA shooting at things with the FW and the F4 it has been my experience that the two rounds have essentially the same individual leathality and essentially the same maximum range (air-to-air mode).

The pilot does not control ROF. The pilot does not control muzzle velocity. The pilot cannot control individual round leathality.

Basically the ONLY thing the pilot can control is the shot itself (aim). Therefore, I have focused on what happens when an individual round lands on target. In my experience, if you...the pilot...can land either a MG151/20 round or a Hispano round in exactly the same place on an aircraft you will get essentially the same effect.

THAT is all I have been saying. And I'm willing to wager that HTC planned it that way.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

 

Toad said:
The pilot does not control ROF. The pilot does not control muzzle velocity. The pilot cannot control individual round leathality.

Basically the ONLY thing the pilot can control is the shot itself (aim). Therefore, I have focused on what happens when an individual round lands on target. In my experience, if you...the pilot...can land either a MG151/20 round or a Hispano round in exactly the same place on an aircraft you will get essentially the same effect.

THAT is all I have been saying. And I'm willing to wager that HTC planned it that way.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-10-2000).]

Bingo.



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-10-2000).]