Author Topic: Thoughts about head ons (Read 1486 times)

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #30 on:** August 08, 2000, 05:24:00 PM »

If you HO people, you can't do an early turn. Personaly people coming guns screaming right on me are doing three things:

- miss me.

- see me in their 6 when they are only half of their turn/loop, wondering how I got there .

- say I cheated/overmodelled while they are blowing up.

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Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier

SFRT Aces High web page http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-08-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #31 on:** August 08, 2000, 05:37:00 PM »

Scale down the gun lethality, and suddenly HOs aren't as valuable.

In WW2 a P-47 came home with 20 x 20 mm hits, and a Luftwaffe pilot told me he once landed his Me 109 with 82 holes in it from USAAF .50 cal. Neither of those can happen here. Either the vets are fibbing or the guns in AH are a little strong.

HO and other tactics that depend on very few hits doing a lot of damage become dramatically less valuable if lethality is scaled back. I hope HTC takes a look at this.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]

Fariz · « **Reply #32 on:** August 08, 2000, 05:40:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro:
From James Howard's book, Roar of the Tiger:

"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, 'We never turn away from a head-on attack.

That is close to what I read from one for the russian aces memores. He wrote that flying HO was quite safe due to it was very hard to hit anything in HO aproach (unlike in AH) UNLESS both refused to turn which resulted in collisions. Also he wrote that the one who turned first had less chances to survive. So they were instructed to avoid HO's, but if they are forced into it to fly straight and do not turn away. Considering that "taran" was the thing USSR propogandists praised very much it was honer to die ramming enemy, so they very few in his squad who ever turned, so it was several collisions in HO's.

I read that book like 15 years ago, and do not have it now, but I remember that quite clear because I imagined what it taked to fly straight.

Fariz

Nash · « **Reply #33 on:** August 08, 2000, 05:56:00 PM »

Funked,

Correct me if I'm off here...

I've seen alot off complainin' that the guns are scaled back in WB, and they'd like to see them pushed back up to 100%. Even a thread suggesting an entire arena set to 100% gun lethality.

Is it your feeling that guns in WB are scaled back too far, and that the guns in AH are in fact well OVER 100% lethality?

Just curious...

I'd be loathe to support the artificial tweakin' of anything to discourage what any player can in fact AVOID if they choose.

But if some people just can't seem to avoid HO's, I strongly sugest they hunt down a trainer and spend a 1/2 with him in the TA to get help with this. That's about the best 'fix' for this I can come up with.

funked · « **Reply #34 on:** August 08, 2000, 06:15:00 PM »

I don't know Nash.

I think the WB guns model is screwed up mostly because it doesn't model all the bullets (except for a few heavy guns like 37mm and MK 108).

Your rate of fire AND ammo load are half of what they should be.

Rate of fire affects hit probability, so WB probably fudges the bullet diameter to make a hit more probable.

And ammo load means destructive power, so they probably fudge the kinetic or explosive energy in each bullet to make it do as much damage as two.

The problem is that this is not a linear problem. You can't just scale the bullets up and lower the rate of fire, and expect to get the same results as a real gun shooting at a real plane. So WB lethality will always be "wrong" because they are trying to make one bullet act like two bullets, both in probability of hits, and in amount of damage done. This means they have no choice but to use artificial methods for determing lethality.

However AH (according to Pyro) models all the bullets. So I think it is fair to expect damage from AH bullets to be similar to that done by bullets in the war. I'm not sure this is the case. But I am using anectdotal evidence here, which is highly variable and subject to selective memory.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-08-2000).]

Andy Bush · « **Reply #35 on:** August 08, 2000, 06:45:00 PM »

SFRT - Frenchy

Lead turns are excellent BFM. No doubt about that.

But here's the thing about a lead turn. It is only successful because of two reasons. One, the adversary never saw you in the first place...or, two, he let you.

An adversary who still has the energy to maneuver should be able to deny you the lead turn by turning into you to take away your lateral separation.

This brings to mind a technique mentioned in these threads. One reader advocates descending below the attacker...while this may spoil the attacker's aim, it also presents the attacker with an outstanding opportunity to lead turn the target in the vertical.

I think Blakeslee had it right.

Andy

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #36 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:03:00 PM »

Andy, usually it happened like this:

You go HO and you start your early turn, while the other guy stills flies straight toward you trying to shoot you down on the short seconds you expose your belly.

Because you started to turn a bit earlier, you beat him at the top of the loop, and it's your turn to have a couple of seconds to shoot at him.

I don't know if you understand what I try to say, but trust me hehehe

off course, if u start it too late u in a HO, if u start it too early the other guy is in ur 6

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #37 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:06:00 PM »

oups and for my 2 cents about HO, even flying the P47 I usually avoid them, but sometimes, when 1 or several bad guys engage me from higher when I'm slow, HO is the best way to survive even if it's a 50/50 chance of survival

StSanta · « **Reply #38 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:27:00 PM »

Hm, I have several ways of handing HO's.

The most risky, but also rewarding; a barrel roll as the badnit opens up. The bandit passes, and you're free to do whatever you want. Very rewarding

. Saw showed me this trick, and I was amazed by his audacity.

A quick dive as the enemy gets within close range, followed by a very quick jink to the left or right. The loss of potential energy is neglible, and can be picked up in a zoom climb.

If I see a HO develop, and have time for it, I sometimes turn a little right or left, and put the bandit at my 10 or 2 o clock position. I avoid turning to the last second, and let the bandit do the e bleeding turns for as far as possible. As he or she approaches, I roll into and over/under, and continue to extend or zoom after the bandit has passed.

However, sometimes, avoiding the HO means giving up position or an edge.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Andy Bush · « **Reply #39 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:44:00 PM »

SFRT - Frenchy

Let me make sure I understand you.

You and your adversary are merging head on. Prior to the merge, you initiate a lead turn by pulling up into a looping maneuver (Immelmann??). Is this right?

My God. I'm glad that this is just a game. Not that you would...but please don't try this in RL.

Andy

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #40 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:54:00 PM »

yes Handy but not as simple as this.

Depending on closing speed I usually start around 800y, with an initial turn to on side just to throw me off the eni plain 12 then I spiral to the over side in a climb. (now I gave up my tactic, I'm a dead man hehehe)

No audacity/risk, no reward. And it works in RL too, as eni usually can't stabilize is shooting solution on you and it's also 'disorientating'.

Andy Bush · « **Reply #41 on:** August 08, 2000, 08:57:00 PM »

StSanta

I must admit that the first time I saw the rolling defense, I was somewhat taken aback! And I did fly straight thru as I watched him to see what this aero display was all about.

Then I read about this technique. It's OK, I guess, insofar as it spoiling a tracking solution. But...I would remind the readers that the person doing the roll is giving up the tally at a very critical time.

My advice to anyone seeing the roll done against him would be to consider an immediate lead turn with the lift vector on or slightly above/below the bandit depending on your energy state and lateral separation.

Andy

Andy Bush · « **Reply #42 on:** August 08, 2000, 09:02:00 PM »

SFRT - Frenchy

That's pretty amazing!

If I may ask..who are these RL opponents?

Andy

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #43 on:** August 08, 2000, 11:44:00 PM »

Andy, I have the feeling that you are having fun of me

You must be a fighter pilot in RL to have so much self-confidence and being ironic about what I tried to share.

I was never in a real dogfight (yet)

but I was for a very short time a trainee in the french Navy Squadron 51S at Rochefort and then I switched to the French Air Force where I was based at several Air Bases. I worked for a brief period of time at the CFAC (Combat Air Force Command) and gave daily classes about aircrafts/tactics to pilots and radar controllers.

That doesn't make me a fighter pilot or an expert in ACM, but those chattig with FAF veterans who lived thru the jet age were very instructive and fun. Since I'm here, I want to thank Col. xxxx who often took time to call me see the radar scope real time dogfights training and explain me what was going on with excitation. Hehehe he was fun, he was always explaining like if he was flying himself with hands gestures and a loud voice.

Andy, I have nothing to prove to you, I was just trying to explain my alternative to HO, and I feel you were just on the edge of free flaming

So now, go ahead, who are your RL opponents

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-09-2000).]

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #44 on:** August 09, 2000, 03:07:00 AM »

"JUST SAY NO TO HO"

Sounds like soething cool to paint on the front shide of the canopy