Thoughts about head ons

[Andy Bush]

SFRT - Frenchy

I'm not trying to flame you, embarrass you, or dull your enthusiasm. Your willingness to openly involve yourself in these discussions is one reason why this hobby is such a neat thing for everyone.

Here's my take on these forum discussions. Putting all the banter and good-natured joking aside, these topics mirror what the RL fighter pilot does...which is learn the tricks of the trade from others in BS sessions. It's that way today...and it was the same when I was a new guy. (for that matter, I'm still a new guy when it comes to on-line flying, and so I'm always looking for tips!)

But things today are also like it was back then...intermixed with the legitimate tactics and tips were the not-so-legitimate stories that flew in the face of established physics and BFM principles.

Every so often, a technique will be mentioned on these boards that seems to fit into that latter category. One is left to wonder if the writer really flys like that or if the technique was proposed more as an attempt to posture.

I also recognize that the writer may in fact be accurately describing a technique that has 'worked' for him. But if this technique is technically incorrect, then its success is more a factor of his opponent's lack of skill rather than its own superior merits.

Such it is with your description of an oblique pull up into an oncoming HO opponent. At the range you gave (~2400'), your opponent in the typical AH aircraft will have the turn performance to pull up inside your turn. By presenting your belly to him, you are inviting at least a snapshot that may evolve into a vertical rolling scissors...or at worst a bandit camped at your six with a tracking solution. Neither of these is exactly good.

Nor is it good that another reader of these posts will take your technique as gospel and then try to apply it to his flying. If his opponent is on the ball, that reader will get whacked...as it should be. The technique is more of an invitation to 'shoot me' than it is an example of a lead turn.

My background is posted on the Air Combat Corner page at www.simhq.com.

Andy  

[Hazed]

funked i whole heartedly agree that gun lethallity should be reduced a little..this would prolong dogfights and after all thats what i enjoy most...all too often i fly for 10 minutes and get bounced,put up a good defence then a couple of hits and its back to the 10 minute flight  
i think the harder it is to be shot down the longer the fights and the more fun. I think there should still be lethal zones eg pilot and parts of the engine as this is realistic and require great skill to actually aim for   but the airframe should be a little more rugged.Fly the p47 and you get a taste of what i mean.Ive been shot up in one lost engine oil,flaps,the odd elevator and all sorts and managed to straggle my way home and REALLY enjoying the rtb  .Its a tough bird and it 'Feels' stronger.why not up all the models strengh by 20-30%.same'feel' longer fights  

[StSanta]

I think the balance is rather good as it is  



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Pyro]

There is one advantage against maneuvering against a plane going for a head-on shot that is present here but not in a real fight and that's lag.  I can't believe I'm the only one who gets warm fuzzies as I'm halfway through an immelman looking staight back and seeing a guy still firing his head-on shot.  He ends up losing a lot of angles at the merge by going for the shot.  It's kind of like Andrew Jackson dueling, take the other guy's wild shot and then calmly make him pay.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I understand what you are trying to explain to me, butI don't understand why you say it doesn't work. The distance example I gave was arbitrary.

If I'm flying at high speed HO with someone who looks like flying at the same high speed. That I start a loop 2 sec before we pass each other HO, will I will not beat him at the top of the loop of 1-2 second?

I'm pretty bad to line up my HO on someone, but I'm pretty good at shooting on someone when I reach the top of the loop. And usually I can avoid the HO shooting from the other guy because at high speed is manoueverablility is not so hot.

We talking prop planes here, it doesn't really 100% obei to the dogfighting rules of modern jets I believe. The weight/thrust ratio allows a jet to do things and modify have a better control on your Energy state. (I would not do something like that in a jet, but with a prop I think it's ok, did you had the same experience in dogfighting with a prop plane, or did you most of the time used jets?).

BTW, Red Flag 95, France beat the hell out of USA. hihihi Go FAF Go! (sorry, Frenchy had to do it)  

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 08-09-2000).]

[hblair]

Pyro beat me to it. I can't remember the last time I tried to avoid an HO and the other guy even pinged me.

Wait til he gets d900 or so, if he's coming straight in pull back on the stick, hard at first then gently til you're vertical, point the plane straight up (watch in your rear view at his spewing ammo   ) til you reach about 150 IAS. Watching him the whole time, then pull more til your flying inverted, then do a 180 degree roll. Look Down. Spot him. Plan your attack, and kill him.

Works for me.

BTW, your description made sense to me frenchy. I respect you as a very good P47 pilot and take your opinion seriously.

I very much respect your experience in the military Andy, flying jets. I'm sure you know what you're talking about on the subject of real world BFM. you seem like a very intelligent fella.

But what is your experience in this simm? What is your handle BTW? Maybe we could wing up sometime.  



[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 08-09-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Attached is a diagram showing this HO situation. The scale is based on a TAS of about 300KTAS, the radii represent a radial G of about 4.

At 300KTAS, the turn radius is about 2000'. Velocity is about 500fps.

If the bandit begins his pull at the ranges given in the previous posts (800-900 yards), then he is pulling up at a range greater than his (and the adversary's) turn radius.

If the adversary begins his pull immediately after seeing the other pull up, the situation in the diagram exists. If he does not, and instead flys straight through, then the bandit will indeed have an opportunity to roll out on the adversary's high six.

Imagine this turning plane in the horizontal instead of the vertical. Would you still maneuver like this? In a horizontal plane, does this look like a good idea? I don't think so...the orientation of the turning planes has nothing to do with the validity of the technique.

Now, let's talk about net lag. If this aspect of on-line flying can result in the adverary continuing straight ahead with the bandit still at his twelve o'clock when in fact the bandit has already pulled up into the vertical...then we no longer have a 'realistic' BFM environment. If both pilots are not 'seeing' the same thing, then how in the world can anyone represent this as 'BFM'?

Net lag may be a factor beyond our control. If this lag results in significant disparities in what opponents 'see', then these problem areas need to be clearly identified to all players. Not doing so invites an opportunity for an advantage being conferred that has not been earned.

SFRT - Frenchy

BFM is BFM, regardless of what you fly. Modern jets do have certain capabilities that WW2 fighters did not have...but this is irrelevant to our discussion.

Your 'arbitrary' choice of range is not insignificant. BFM is about performance numbers...for a given number, certain expectations can be assumed. Change the number, and expectations change.

You will only 'beat (your opponent) to the top' if you can exceed his turn rate, OR he turns late. In this situation, it does not make any sense for the adversary to continue straight through while letting you pull up behind him (unless, because of net lag, he doesn't see that you have pulled up.)

The bottom line here is that when someone posts specific numbers regarding BFM technique, then these numbers had better be verifiable. Turn performance is about true airspeed and radial G, period.

There are no 'Gee whiz, I wish you were dead' BFM maneuvers...lift vector control and energy management combined with timely decision making are the controlling variables.

Andy

 

[Andy Bush]

hblair

My c/s is 'bg'. I don't do much on-line flying...when I do, it is usually in the training arena where I try to work on my use of the views. I'm hopeless in using the snap views!!

I'll look for you the next time I'm up...maybe you can help me out.

Andy

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by hblair:
... if he's coming straight in pull back on the stick, hard at first then gently til you're vertical, point the plane straight up (watch in your rear view ...

And see him going in a fast, calmed and gentle climb.... Then see him hammering over you... and then see your wings 20 feet apart of your aircraft body.

The worst mistake of anybody when evading HO is just thinking the other is an absolute newbie.

[Jigster]

I have a couple of manuvers that I normally do for HO passes that nearly always works, and of course critiquing is always welcome if it's contstructive  

First one is in a lower E state, or the guy attacking is fast : once d 2500 to 2000 normally the guy attacking me won't move off his course at this point. I pull up a little, and roll slightly left or right while doing so, and the attack pulls slightly to correct normally. At this point I turn slight and roll towards the attacker pointing my wing tip at him. If I time it right as he gets close I pull a sharp, low yoyo at first, and ease off the G's as I come around and he's past... alot of times guys flat turn after this and blow their E but other then that the manuver is only good for dodging a HO and not really gaining an advantage. Granted all I said has to been done within a matter of seconds due to closure rate.

One I use the most frequent is a barrel-roll like manuver, where I pull (normally up and to the left or right like before) out of the attacker's flight path for only a second, then quickly roll over and pull again, which normally places my just past his wing whenever I finish. It's hard to describe I guess but from the attacker's POV I lift just out of his gunsight before in range, and as he corrects his plane, mine appears to keep rolling (because of the directions switch) so when I pass his flight path again I'm already behind him, albeit in the opposite direction, and inverted. Quick roll upright and I've preserved most of my E and can choose whether to turn and engage or keep going and extend.

Skidding while in a low yoyo also seems to work well, but blows and energy ya have.

- Jig
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Never fear dweebs giving advice. This is normal in the world. When the true masters give advice, be very wary of what you have been told. -- Dweeb er I mean me.

[hblair]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
And see him going in a fast, calmed and gentle climb.... Then see him hammering over you... and then see your wings 20 feet apart of your aircraft body.

The worst mistake of anybody when evading HO is just thinking the other is an absolute newbie.

I haven't been out immelmaned in an equal speed merge in at lesat 2 tours. I fly the 109G10. It is the king of merges.

In all honesty mandoble, 60% to 80% of the planes i meet in a level merge in the MA just run straight thru either with or without an HO shot.

There are only a handful of pony drivers ya gotta worry about, hang, WD, etc.

Most other planes just cnat make that long extended imellman.

The MA and the dueling ladder are two different animals.  

[hblair]

Sounds like a plan to me andy. I look forward to meeting you. I'm usually in the TA for some period of time every night.

[Maverick]

Here is a simple solution to the HO situation. It will also solve quite a few other complaints regarding gunnery in AH.

1. Make max range of ALL guns 200 yards.
(Without the ability to shoot at long range there is little time to shoot in the HO merge. This means all cannon planes with convergence set way out there can't exploit it.)

2. Make ALL guns equal in lethality.
(This means there is no 50's vs cannon debate. If all guns are set to, say one 50 cal in lethality no one has an advantage on guns.)

3. Make all planes perform identically. (This means the result of the fight is TOTALLY the result of the winning pilot's skill.)

4. Ignore all of the above and just play the game.

Make your choice and ask that any or most of the above solutions be implemented.


Now if you thought any but #4 were serious..... you need help not available on this BBS!  

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No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

jigster

If you objective is to spoil an adversary's gun tracking, you have some good ideas. Most of what you describe will tend to move you away from the other guy's gun line.

Now...about this 'low yo-yo'!! What you are describing does not sound like a low yo-yo maneuver...it sounds more like a bunt.

A Low Yo-Yo is a specific BFM maneuver designed to increase closure. It is not a defensive maneuver by any stretch of the imagination.

A 'bunt', on the other hand, is any unloaded maneuver...often used to gain airspeed (but only works in a sim when gravity is modeled correctly)...but it could describe any maneuver where the stick is pushed forward into something less than one G flight.

If you bunt while cross controlling with excess rudder, it is possible to get a flight path that tends to move down and away from an opponent's gun line.

Andy

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by hblair:

In all honesty mandoble, 60% to 80% of the planes i meet in a level merge in the MA just run straight thru either with or without an HO shot.

My problem is that I'm so used to fight against veteran pilots (mainly WB H/H) that I cant think that 80% of the actual MA pilots will fail to follow the first two steps after winning a HO (that is, the other evades with violent movemets). In fact, you are right, only a bunch of pilots know very well how to kill you if you attempt to "evade" the HO. But there is a BIG TRUE: In a Veteran vs Veteran (same plane) duel with no cold first pass, the first that attemps to evade will be killed in matter of seconds. Any, just any, unnecessary movement of the stick is a sure dead.

IMO, in a HO, if you think the other is an unexperienced pilot, ok, try to evade. Else, better be confident that tbe other is an honorable one and wont shoot at the pass, or be ready to dead if you try to evade.