Iraq: A Federal Judge's Point of View

[Udie]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
bush claimed that those balloon trailers were the WMD's that justified the war and that was all the proof he needed.

 He did?  Care to prove that?  Child

[Udie]

I would like to take the time to thank all the liberals for posting in this thread.  It was wonderful to pwn all of you

[llyr69]

It cracks me up to hear some folks get all bent out of shape about an estimate that we may be in Iraq 10 years.

Personally, I think our presence will be as "temporary" as our basing has been in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, et al.....we'll be there like it or not for far longer.

Yes, I think it's necessary.

Close a few bases in Germany, open a few in Iraq....they're certainly not needed in Germany except as permanent employment for local nationals....but I digress.....

[k2cok]

Gadfly, what is your definition of deception?

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: de·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English decepcioun, from Middle French deception, from Late Latin deception-, deceptio, from Latin decipere to deceive
Date: 15th century

1 a : the act of deceiving b : the fact or condition of being deceived

2 : something that deceives : TRICK
- de·cep·tion·al  /-sh&-n&l/ adjective
synonyms DECEPTION, FRAUD, DOUBLE-DEALING, SUBTERFUGE, TRICKERY mean the acts or practices of one who deliberately deceives.

DECEPTION may or may not imply blameworthiness, since it may suggest cheating or merely tactical resource . FRAUD always implies guilt and often criminality in act or practice .

DOUBLE-DEALING suggests treachery or at least action contrary to a professed attitude .

SUBTERFUGE suggests the adoption of a stratagem or the telling of a lie in order to escape guilt or to gain an end .

TRICKERY implies ingenious acts intended to dupe or cheat .

The Bush administration's attempt to link Iraq with Al Qaeda was a lie.  In reality, not a shred of evidence suggested any alliance, practical or otherwise, between them

The attempt to characterize Saddams balloon trailers as WMD was a lie, and one Bush is still repeating.

Bush is a serial liar, surely your intellectually honest enough to recognize and admit this?

I would list the lies Bush has told in chronological order beginning with the oath of office but I'll save that for another thread.  

How about manipulate?

Main Entry: ma·nip·u·late
Pronunciation: m&-'ni-py&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: back-formation from manipulation, from French, from manipuler to handle an apparatus in chemistry, ultimately from Latin manipulus
Date: 1831

1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner

2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose :

In his prime-time press conference last March, which focused almost solely on Iraq, Bush mentioned Sept. 11 eight times. He referred to Saddam Hussein many more times than that, often in the same breath with Sept. 11.
 
Bush never pinned blame for the attacks directly on the Iraqi president. Still, the overall effect was to reinforce an impression that persists among much of the American public: that the Iraqi dictator did play a direct role in the attacks.

A New York Times/CBS poll showed that 45 percent of Americans believe Mr. Hussein was "personally involved" in Sept. 11.
 
US intelligence sources say there is no evidence that Hussein played a role in the Sept. 11 attacks, nor that he has ever aided Al Qaeda.

Now that Bush has us in Iraq he's backing off from the assertions he made back in March. (yesterday)

Bush encouraged this false impression and succeeded in creating a sense that there is some connection between Sept. 11 and Saddam Hussein

Polling data showed that right after Sept. 11, 2001, when Americans were asked open-ended questions about who was behind the attacks, only 3 percent mentioned Iraq or Hussein.

But by January of this year, attitudes had been transformed. In a Knight Ridder poll, 44 percent of Americans reported that either "most" or "some" of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens.

The answer is zero.

That sir is deception.

[Gadfly]

Show me something that would indicate that that speech(or any speech)led to the 45%'s erroneous belief that Saddam was behind 9/11, and you will have a point.  Otherwise you are confusing several issues.  

As stated above, public perception actually has little to do with the ability of the U.S. to go to war.  If you can show me where the Administration lied to Congress, again, you may have something.

Secondly, the basis for the U.S. going to war was laid out for the international community by Colin Powell, and if you take the time to review his speech, you will see that nothing stated is either factually wrong, or intended to deceive.

[Scootter]

Originally posted by llyr69
It cracks me up to hear some folks get all bent out of shape about an estimate that we may be in Iraq 10 years.

Personally, I think our presence will be as "temporary" as our basing has been in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, et al.....we'll be there like it or not for far longer.

Yes, I think it's necessary.

Close a few bases in Germany, open a few in Iraq....they're certainly not needed in Germany except as permanent employment for local nationals....but I digress.....

Correct Sir,

We were in Germany due to the cold war, we now have a hot war and need to relocate. I have no problem with that, when the other side surrenders from this war then we can talk.

Time changes things, History will go well for W and not well for many others. Anyone remember the 6 congressmen who wanted nothing to do with the Berlin Airlift?   Well?  thats my point, they were wrong and forgoten.

This is all the Libs have left, Stock market is up, Unemployment is down, No attacks so far, Hurts to be a Dem. these days, they may even loose Cal.


Ahh and lets see if we can get another half dozen Bozo's to run.

Maybe even the queen Bozo herself!! that would be fun

[Frogm4n]

"You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons, They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. "

"And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them."



-Bush lying about balloon makers.


fun comments from the admin about why we went to war!

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence
that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was
about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
April 10, 2003

[Frogm4n]

Stock market is up, Unemployment is down

when did 3 million jobs reappear?

[Udie]

Originally posted by Frogm4n

"You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons, They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. "

 So because we found 2 of the mobil labs he lied?


"And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them."

 this a lie?



-Bush lying about balloon makers.

huh?


fun comments from the admin about why we went to war!

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence
that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was
about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
April 10, 2003


 That's not a lie,  that's a statement of fact.  You poor child.

[Scootter]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
when did 3 million jobs reappear?

http://custom.marketwatch.com/custom/earthlink-net/mw-news-headlines.asp?GUID={1A5AFE68-2B05-4434-B502-BE29378E5B8D}&destination=&symb=DJIA



Never said it was over just said it was down, dont be a dip stick:cool:


btw I really did not mean to use the work "stick" you understand.

[k2cok]

Bush gave Congress incomplete information by hiding behind their worn out excuse of "national security", it was hardly possible for them to make an informed decision when it was based on what Bush wanted them to know vs what they should have been given by the White House.  

He looked into the camera and lied to the American people when he made his Iraq al-Queda link, he as much as admitted it yesterday.

He continues to lie about the WMD trailers even though that has been thoroughly debunked.

As far as Powell goes please explain the WMD trailers to me again, I must be a bit slow.  

Hey, but it's fun arguing with you----maybe you could school Udie a bit, that shreiking Ann Coulter style of his gets on the nerves.

[Gadfly]

Hey!  That is  a step in the right direction, Frogm4n.

Now, let's take them one at a time:

"You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons, They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. "

"And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them."



-Bush lying about balloon makers.


You need to carry your search out a little bit further, and illustrate the fact that the mobile labs were, in fact, not used for Biological production, or, in lieu of that, prove that they were used only to produce hydrogen.   It is not enough on either side to say that they could be used for both, and it is not a lie to say that they could be used for either.


But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence
that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was
about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
April 10, 2003


Why is this statement erroneous or a lie?  it is a statement, but it is also not presented as a fact.  "high confidence" is what they believe, and it has yet to be proven either way.  Still open to debate, but in no way can it be construed as lying or deception.

Keep going, though, at least we are debating now.

[Gadfly]

K2, you presume that all information available to the Congress is, or must somehow be screened through the White House.  This is simply not true.

[Frogm4n]

oh i didnt say the second statement was a lie. Just pointing out what the admin sold us the war on. Of course there is yet to be any concret evidence that they knew there were no wmd's, but went to war on that pretense anyways. Chance's are we will never know; hell if reagan got off on iran-contra this will be hella-easy for Bush.

[Gadfly]

Sold who?  Speak for yourself, Young man, I researched the issue and made up my own mind.