spit14 vs. p38?

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Guppy
It's interesting to note that the AFDU drew a very similar conclusion when comparing the Spitfire V and the Spitfire IX; I wonder if they ever flew a V against an XIV?

The AFDU evaluation of the P-38F is quite definite that the Spitfire V could outturn it. Similarly, a 1st FG pilot (P-38s, MTO) is quoted in Pacifica's "Aces in Combat" series as saying that the P-38 could outturn anything in the theatre except the Spitfire.

The P-38 might be able to get inside the Spitfire briefly using some of its tricks (gentle no-torque stall, flaps, asymmetric thrust) but it had better capitalise quickly or the Spitfire dominates the sustained turning fight.

In a high speed turn fight, the P-38 out turns a Spitfire.  It's when speeds are in the medium speed area, 250mph-150mph (IAS) that the Spitfire can easily out turn the P-38.  At low to stall speeds, the P-38 regains the slight edge because of the gentle stall characteristics of the Lightning.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by leitwolf

How can the 38 win?

Easily...if the P-38 pilot is good that is.



ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
who would win. waas aruging with akak last night. my guess is a spit14 flown in the right hand could guarntee a win over even a well flown p38.

skulll12

There are no guarantees in life.  Now maybe if someone like Drex or Leviathn was flying that Spitfire Mk XIV, then I'd give the edge to them but most anyone else...

If you really want to find out though, we can duel sometime.  I'm getting low on my baby harp seal skins and could use a few more before winter sets in.


ack-ack

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There are no guarantees in life.  Now maybe if someone like Drex or Leviathn was flying that Spitfire Mk XIV, then I'd give the edge to them but most anyone else...

If you really want to find out though, we can duel sometime.  I'm getting low on my baby harp seal skins and could use a few more before winter sets in.


ack-ack

ive never seen drex fly but tod? he would fly it like a spit5 the old turn and burn.

[davidpt40]

There's the famous duel between Lowell in a P-38H versus some RAF pilot in a Spitfire Mk XV, in which Lowell won the mock fight and a case of beer. Beat the Spitfire Mk XV in a turning stall fight.

The one I am thinking of was definately a P-38L.  

This is the kind of data that gets people in a huff about modeling while it in fact tells us nothing. Without knowing the energy states of the two aircraft we can't base anything off of this.

To put it another way, if the P-38L could out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV then it could out turn the Spitfire Mk IX and AH has them all horribly modeled. This comment of mine is based on the non-anecdotal evidence that there was little to choose between the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XIV in regards to turning.

I would be interested in how an aircraft with a wing loading of ~60lbs/sq.ft. out turns a fighter with ~40lbs/sq.ft.

Please calm down little boy.  I didn't say scientists ran a detailed and highly monitored series of turning trials between the two aircraft.  I said the evidence was anecdotal.

[vorticon]

you can fight all day about plane stats and who would theoretically win but in the end it all depends  on the pilot...a machine is no good without a decent operator...


anyway spit 14 vs p38 is like comparing a GMAW welding machine with a SMAW welding machine...they both do essentially the same thing its just 1 is incredibly easy to use and be decent at but you have to be a better than decent person to use the other well...

[Lazerus]

quote:
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To put it another way, if the P-38L could out turn the Spitfire Mk XIV then it could out turn the Spitfire Mk IX
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Spit14 out turns a spit9??

[TimRas]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In a high speed turn fight, the P-38 out turns a Spitfire.

I don't quite understand this "outturning in high speed" -thing. When both planes are above their instantaneous corner speeds (usually 200-300mph at sea level) their turning ability is equal, ie. limited by 6g blackout limit. All planes are thus equal in those speeds. It is only below the corner speed, when the differences start to show. According to Badboys' EM -diagrams, Spit IX is superior in all speeds below the corner speed. The difference is quite small near stall speeds, when P-38 uses full flaps,though. Unfortunately I don't have direct comparison here, both planes are compared with C.205.

[Kweassa]

Tim, I'm no physicist and totally layman at looking at charts and stuff, but I feel that chart is very much theoretical, and does not count the other possible factors.

 One of them being the ability to dump E faster than the other - I've seen expert P-47 pilots like Frenchy or Lephturn quite often mentioning that in some cases, the E should not be saved and must be boldy thrown away when it is needed to be.

 I don't think that refers to any extended turn fights, but in cases where two planes might start an engagement in an equal one-circle fight at speeds near 400mph, the plane which dumps E faster will often gain the advantage.

 For instance, when two Spit9s engage against each other same speed, meeting in a HO merge and both turning to one side, the better pilot will often chop throttle, engage rudders, and continuously tighten his radius until he gains an advantageous position over the other pilot who's trying to turn with his throttle fully open.

 I believe what Ack is saying does not necessarily represent a technical truth about plane performance, but rather empirical and tactical advantage one pilot may have over a less-skilled/experienced one - mostly in cases such as dumping E at very high speed sustained turn fights as seen when two planes spiral downwards each after another's tail, or like when one plane at high speed, tries an instantaneous turn for lining up a shot.

[davidpt40]

The engagement where a P38L was able to out-turn a spitfire went like this-  A spitfire pilot was at an allied airbase in England bragging about his aircraft.  He either challenged or was challenged by a P38L pilot.  

Memory is a slight bit foggy on this part- They decide to either hold a mock dogfight or a turning trial over the airbase.  They have a set altitude at which they are going to merge (may have been 5000 feet).  So the P38 pilot climbs above 5k, and dives down to 5k when they merge.  He then uses a maneuver that he keeps referring to as a 'clover-leaf' to get around on the Spitfires tail and stay there.

Before anyone starts acting wild, this is just anecdotal evidence.  We don't know what kind of Spitfire it was, whether or not the Spit and P38 had the same airspeed on merge, or even what this unique 'clover-leaf' maneuver was.

But the only logical conclusion is that the Spitfire was in a sustained low speed turn while the P38 pilot somehow figured out how to get his airspeed high enough (for short bursts anyways) to out turn the spit.

[Ack-Ack]

That's the famous duel between Lowell and a RAF recce pilot in a Spitfire Mk XV.  Lowell was in a P-38H and the winner received a case of beer.

During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG. Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass. Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.

ack-ack

[Nashwan]

I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.

[Nilsen]

P38 would win

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Nilsen10
P38 would win

Prove it.


Also, I don't understand why people use phrases like, "In the right hands".  Completely meaningless.  If we are going to compare aircraft then we must assume, "All other things being equal,", other wise we aren't comparing the aircraft.

[Nilsen]

I do not need to prove it, Its just my opinion. Nobody can really proove any of this cause charts and numbers are just one part of this. To many variables to consider to be able to draw any decisive conclusions.

Toughness, firepower and cockpit visability etc. are just a few of the things that has to be taken into account.