spit14 vs. p38?

[TheManx]

All things being equal, the Spit XIV outturns the P38. I'm not saying this because I like either any better, as I fly them both. The XIV turns very well with throttle chopped. If it weren't perked so high, I'm certain you'd see more Spit XIV drivers learning their planes well enough to give the 38 aces fits.

[Soda]

You can't discuss pilot ability or initial conditions in a comparison like this as those are usually the two most "favoring" factors.  Honestly, initial conditions and pilot ability determine the outcome more than aircraft characteristics in most cases.

If you look at pure aircraft characteristics though the Spit XIV should win.  I would give the firepower (aiming) and stall handling to the P-38 while the Spit XIV wins everywhere else even if you consider it as a slightly inferior turner to the Spit IX (which the charts posted shot).  I mean, the P-38L we have with full flaps can manage 18 deg/sec at about 126mph (sustained) and a 600ft radius.  The Spit IX can manage 23 deg/sec @ 145mph in 550ft.  The Spit IX has a dominant acceleration advantage (ties an La7),  a climb advantage of over 1,500ft/min, and a 14mph advantage in top speed a sea-level.  The roll rate on the Spit is superior, momentum on the P-38 is difficult to counter, the views from the Spit are better to most angles than the P-38, the firepower of the Spit is about equal in terms of damaging capability, and the size of the Spit has to serve as an advantage over the P-38.

Those are just my thoughts though, the P-38 would have to win early as the advantage favors the Spit more and more as time goes by and the Spit can certainly match any maneuver the P-38 throws it's way.  Even in a stall type vertical climb, the Spits climb rate and awesome low speed handling make it very dangerous.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Soda
You can't discuss pilot ability or initial conditions in a comparison like this as those are usually the two most "favoring" factors.  Honestly, initial conditions and pilot ability determine the outcome more than aircraft characteristics in most cases.

Don't tell that to Urchin.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Drex]

Everyone is an ace when you fight on paper.

Drex

[Gixer]

All the Spits imho are probably the best balanced fighters in the game. I can't see how you could lose against a P38 unless the P38 stick was very good or he had alot of E and you never get chance to really merge.

I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy  P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.l

Plus I'd like to add that the P38's prop hanging abilities give it hacking qualities no other plane can match in a climb.  



...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~

[Tumor]

Originally posted by davidpt40

But the only logical conclusion is that the Spitfire was in a sustained low speed turn while the P38 pilot somehow figured out how to get his airspeed high enough (for short bursts anyways) to out turn the spit.

Now hold on little boy... why is that the only logical conclusion?

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Nashwan
I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.

Ok ok... so it was a SEAFIRE... so what?

[Nashwan]

I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.

Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.

In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.

I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Gixer

I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy  P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.l

Plus I'd like to add that the P38's prop hanging abilities give it hacking qualities no other plane can match in a climb.  



...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~

I always make the mistake of misidentifying the Spitfire V and the Spitfire Mk IX, thinking the Spitfire V is a Mk IX so I try to turn fight with it.  Once I realize my mistake I have no other choice but to dive away and extend and then go into a shallow climb and get above the Spitfire V.  I have no fear turn and stall fighting against the Mk IX or the Mk XIV but against the Spitfire V my only chance is to either get the Spit driver to get fast and then force a high speed turn fight or BnZ it.  If only there is no other choice, that's the only time I'll turn with a Spitfire V and if it's a good pilot in that Spitfire, the turn fight doesn't last too long.

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I always make the mistake of misidentifying the Spitfire V and the Spitfire Mk IX, thinking the Spitfire V is a Mk IX so I try to turn fight with it.  Once I realize my mistake I have no other choice but to dive away and extend and then go into a shallow climb and get above the Spitfire V.  I have no fear turn and stall fighting against the Mk IX or the Mk XIV but against the Spitfire V my only chance is to either get the Spit driver to get fast and then force a high speed turn fight or BnZ it.  If only there is no other choice, that's the only time I'll turn with a Spitfire V and if it's a good pilot in that Spitfire, the turn fight doesn't last too long.

an easy way is to look at the tail. the spit5's tail will look brown at about 3k out while the spit9 is a greyish color.

[Ack-Ack]

When you making a high speed pass doing 450mph, it's kind of hard to see the details of the other plane


ack-ack

[rshubert]

Originally posted by thrila
I haven't really played AH much in the past couple of months but in tour 42 i had 15 kills for 0 deaths against the p38 in the spit XIV- and i aint no stinkin 109 pilot.   i love spits.   I've not had any p38's out turn me.

Yeh, where have you been, thrila?   Falc and the boys have been looking for you.


shubie

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Nashwan
I doubt it was a Seafire XV, deliveries of those didn't start until March 45.

Also, in August 44, the 364th FG converted to P-51s, so any P-38s around "in late winter" are no longer operational planes.

In other words, you have a report of a mock dogfight from one side only, with a non operational p-38 against an unkown mark of Spitfire (probably a XIV). Using it to judge relative performance is wrong, there just isn't enough accurate information in the story.

I'm not saying the Spitfire was better than the P-38 or vice-versa, but using a story that can't even get the model of the Spitfire correct as the basis of your judgement is a bit silly.

Mostly, people over here call the "winter of 1944" the one that starts in late december 1943.  It makes sense, since all but 9 days of that winter are in the year following the year in which it starts.

That takes away the p-38 argument, but adds to the spitfire mark argument.


shubie

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Nashwan
I've seen the story many times, and it's always a Spitfire XV. There's no such thing as a Spitfire XV, however.

Not entirely true.  It's more then likely a typo  that should read Spitfire XIV, but it also could have been a Seafire XV which was the Navalized version of the Griffon engined Spit XII.  It's entirely possible that a Spitfire Service Test Pilot may have been touring the airbases in this particular version and got into the war of words.

If it was some senior pilot, who'd been off Operations for a bit, it would explain Lowell's 'victory' even easier.  

One of the things the Spit pilots had to adjust to with each new version was that it was not the same beast as it got heavier and more powerful.  A Spit XIV just because of it's all up weight would not have turned like an IX, just as an IX would not have outturned a Spit V.  To try and fly a Spit XIV like an IX or a V would be a mistake and not utilize it's best assets.  

On top of Lowell being a great pilot and at the time currant operational pilot, you'd have someone out of the loop for a bit trying to fly an XIV like an IX or V.  I've often wondered if the pilot who flew against Lowell had been an operational Spit XIV pilot if the outcome might have been different.

Pete Brothers, who had flown fighters with the RAF since the B of B and was a Spit Wing Commander at the time, talked about how with the XIV you could just stand on your tail and climb up to take on the German fighters.  He commented that the German pilots had a hard time getting used to that.

Ginger Lacy, another long time Spit vet, was with 17 Squadron in the Pacific when they transitioned to the XIV from the VIII.  While demonstrating some aerobatics over the airfield, he took the XIV into a loop and nearly mushed it into the ground, having not taken into account the greater weight.  The XIV was definatly a different beast.

Now if it had been a Seafire XV, it would have been lighter, and a better turner with the single stage Griffon best suited for lower alt.  But I'd bet it was an XIV at that point.

Dan/Slack

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by Gixer
I think Spit5 would be biggest nightmare for a co alt/energy  P38. Then again Spit5 is a nighmare for just about everything else in the game given that scenario.

Don't tell that to DMF