spit14 vs. p38?

[gwshaw]

The P-38 used fowler flaps. The combat setting was simply extending the flaps and dropping them 8 degs IIRC. That effectively increased the wing area as well as the lift coefficient. Gave a useful increase in lift with less drag than a plain or split flap would give for the same increase in lift.

The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.

Greg Shaw

[Nashwan]

Guppy, thanks for the post. It's nice to get the full story, with all the details.

Mind you, I have a hard time believing a WW2 RAF Wing Commander would say " I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!" (not in quite those terms, anyway )

The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.

I thought the dive flaps gave a strong pitch-up, ie they could be used to increase instantaneous turn rate?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Guppy, thanks for the post. It's nice to get the full story, with all the details.

Mind you, I have a hard time believing a WW2 RAF Wing Commander would say " I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!" (not in quite those terms, anyway )
 

I got to be good friends with a former RAF pilot back in the 80's early 90s when I was researching the Spit XII.  He'd flown in the B of B with 266 and then 72 Squadrons before doing a tour as a Supermarine Service Test pilot.  In 44 he joined 616 flying Spit VIIs before they converted to Meteors.  

One day while flying a Meteor to a USAAF airfield to introduce the pilots  to it, he was jumped by a P47.  He was low on fuel and couldn't 'play' so he cruised in and landed.  That evening he got to listen to the Jug pilot talking about how he'd whipped the RAF Meteor pilot in mock combat.  

He quietly, with a smile asked the Jug driver if he'd like to go up and take him on the next day when he had plenty of fuel.  The Jug driver declined

Dan/Slack

[Shane]

Originally posted by Guppy35
I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph.  When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail.  

and here in AH he'd be on his way to lawndart-hood, or at the very least be too far into control stiffness/shudder to do more than bore a strightline til be bled another 180mph.

you listening HT?  fix the dayum compression problems, especially down in "thicker" lower alt air!

now!!  hop to it!! screw ah2, it can wait!!!

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by HoHun
Well, what I actually meant to say is that there would be no benefit from the dive flaps in that situation.

I agree.  I think the altitude they were at and the particular situation didn't require their use.  He could have though used them to aid in turning at high speed.

As far as I know, "combat flaps" was just an intermediate setting for the "normal" flaps that gave an optimum compromise between lift and drag.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

I don't know it about being an intermediate setting.  I do know that the first setting of the P-38 flaps is the Fowler Flaps (also known as Combat and Maneuver Flaps).  When the flap lever was moved beyond Maneuvering, the flaps became a conventional hinged flap, which is why they are referred to as 'normal flaps'.  Basically the P-38's flaps were a hybrid design between conventional hinged flaps and a Fowler Flap.








Ack-Ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by gwshaw
The P-38 used fowler flaps. The combat setting was simply extending the flaps and dropping them 8 degs IIRC. That effectively increased the wing area as well as the lift coefficient. Gave a useful increase in lift with less drag than a plain or split flap would give for the same increase in lift.

The dive flaps wouldn't have been any use as maneuver flaps. They were just a bar at about 1/3 chord that when extended changed the pressure distribution and prevented compressibility tuck.

Greg Shaw

The dive flaps when deployed would pitch the nose up, IIRC anywhere from 3-6 degrees.  P-38 pilots did use this to aid them in high speed turns but they couldn't be deployed for extended periods while doing so because of the nose up pitch it bled speed away quickly.


ack-ack

[OIO]

Ak-Ak

'Cloverleaf' is a manouver that takes advantage of the 38's instantaneous turn rate and the plane's excellent acceleration.

Simply put, plane at 400mph, pull tight 45 degrees turn high g's, 38 now at 350mph, let go of stick, 1g,  plane accels to 400, repeat.

If you had smoke trailing you, it would draw the shape of a cloverleaf in the sky.

Galland almost died to a 38 pulling this on his dorka 190d9.

It basically allows you keep turning inside or with a plane that has a better SUSTAINED turn rate than the 38.

In the case of that mock dogfight, the spit I think tried a sustained hard turn (not sure what 'lufbery' means) which the 38 jock countered by pulling the cloverleaf, thus staying in the spit's tail and inside or with his turning circle long enough to bring his guns to bear for a shot.

38 cannot do this forever though, i'd say just 1 or 3 turns with the spit..after that the spit wouldve started to turn tighter.. but then again, all you need is 1 or 3 chances to shoot his arse off

[Ack-Ack]

Here's a couple of descriptions of the maneuver.

Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.

The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver. The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....

Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver.

Too bad I've been unable to find any diagrams that show the maneuver.  The only cloverleaf maneuver diagrams I've found have been the ones that aerobatic pilots use at air shows and isn't the one that Lowell did.

And speaking of Lowell, he was that P-38 pilot that almost shot down Galland.  Would have too if he wasn't so low on gas that risking engagement might turn his sortie into a one way ticket flight.

A Lufbery is basically a circle flat turn.


ack-ack

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack


And speaking of Lowell, he was that P-38 pilot that almost shot down Galland.  Would have too if he wasn't so low on gas that risking engagement might turn his sortie into a one way ticket flight.

A Lufbery is basically a circle flat turn.


ack-ack [/B]

Don't do it Ack-Ack!  HoHun and I went round and round on this one on the old AW boards as to whether the Galland-Lowell meeting actually happened.  Seems like the argument had to do with whether the D9 was operational at that point or not.

Seems like we agreed to disagree that time

Dan/Slack

[davidpt40]

Whos to say Galland was flying an operational D9?  Could have been a prototype.

[HoHun]

Hi Guppy!

>HoHun and I went round and round on this one on the old AW boards as to whether the Galland-Lowell meeting actually happened.  

In fact, I was positively surprised that Lowell's P-38 vs. Spitfire description sounds so convincing! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi David,

>Whos to say Galland was flying an operational D9?  Could have been a prototype.

There's a complete list of the prototypes and their history. I couldn't find any suitable prototype that might have been used by Galland - and Lowell mentions an entire flight of "long-nose" Fw 190s anyway, which is entirely impossible at the time.

Lowell's account is contradictory in a number of points - for example, the position he quotes doesn't match the landscape he describes - and Guppy and I have been unable to figure everything out. We'd probably need some additional sources for that.


Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Dune]

My grandfather, 1st Lt. David Williams, was part of the 384th FS/364th FG.  Flew 88 missions with them:
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/364.html
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/dww51.jpg
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/dww38.jpg

He's told me about the duel.  He also mentioned that one of the reasons Lowell was so good was that he'd been part of the AAC's test program when they developed the -38.  In fact Lowell had been a test pilot at Wright Field.

The 364th flew its firt mission on 2 Mar 44.  My grandfather arrived with the Group in April.  The 364th started the change from -38's (J's) to P-51's in July of 1944.  According the Group's history, the first full flight with P-51D's was 27 Jul 44.

[Furball]

“If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I’ll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot’s ass!”

LOL that statement is BS....  Rest of it may be true but no way a 1940's brit would speak like that! Especially a Wing Commander!

[Angus]

Interesting thread.
Basically I would put my money on the Spit.
Now that Spit XII driver got lured by a high-E P38, - co-E, the Spitfire would have won.
Co-alt, Co E, Furball would whop Ack-Ack's arse, hehe
(Spit IX vs P38)