Author Topic: Which would you rather fly if your life depended..  (Read 4198 times)

Offline Angus

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 05:21:45 AM by Angus »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2003, 12:04:22 PM »
Hi Icemaw,

>Anyone foolish enough to want to attack ground target in a water cooled aircraft deserves the long walk home after some farmer with a flint lock gets a lucky hit on hit on their cooling system.

It's not like the returning escort fighters really flew well-prepared strafing attacks against heavily defended targets.

They just roamed the countryside and shot up everything that looked like an easy target.

Not too much risk involved, really.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline udet

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« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2003, 03:35:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Udet,

How would you get your Spit IX to Germany?? Or better yet how would you get it back?

QUOTE]

If my life depended on it, I'd be scared like shlt. Thus I'd resort to the most natural defensive/offensive tactic, that is, turning as tightly as possible.
That's why I want a Spit!

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2003, 05:53:12 PM »
Udet-

suppose- Your scared and with good reason,  your hard turning spit will not outrun your enemy,  and you will be outnumbered soon because you are over enemy territory, with very limited range (if you could actually fly that far into the AOR.

If you are in a Pony or Jug,  you dive away and have an excellent chance of just outrunning them to and accross the channel.  Speed, durability rules the day in that situation.

vr
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Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2003, 10:11:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlckMgk
Considering I've never flown a real plane, and my only experience has been AH. My thought process is as follows

In The MA: P-51 Just because there are so many assorted contacts including other 51's !.

In real life I'd probably take the P-47, it seems to out perform the LW planes in at least 1-2 aspects, i.e. fighting a 109, roll and it can turn inside most of them, except for the F4 and g2, I'd then use the p-47's speed and High speed manueverability. Vs a 190 it'll be close but I'd still choose the p-47 over the 51.

So in the end the P-47... she just looks so powerful, and who wouldn't want 8x.50cals on the wing to blast an enemy if ya get a chance..


well said and id agree.

but to be fair ill give my "for and against" thoughts like these reasons:

1) the P51 in the role you have described is to go down and straffe after the escort duties are complete.The P51 was a good fast fighter but its worst feature was the ease with which the radiator was hit and even a very small object (a single round of small caliber even) would cause catastrofic failure/damage to the radiator. It wasnt suited therefore to ground attack role unless it had an adaption like a trop filter to help protect its soft underside. Im not sure they did this, just guessing.If you had this conversion it would undoubtedly affect your high alt performance and so make the escort task more dangerous. You cant win with that one.

2) Distance to target would play a major factor though, Say the target was at the edge of the P47s range but within the others then this is where i would choose the aircraft with the best range which would be the P51 I believe? I realise the P38 used certain fuel burn techniques to increase range in the PAC theatre but they didnt do so well in Europe apparently, I think on tv once it said it had something to do with the different types of weather over Europe which affected its superchargers and so its performance or something.Id discount it on those grounds and......

3) ive read several times German Pilots saying they prefered to engage a P38 than any other types of american fighter and I tend to believe they werent just saying it to annoy some flight sim nerds some 60 years into the future :)

4) The P47 was well known to be one of the most rugged fighters of the war and could sustain severe battle damage compared to other types.If its my hide i want it surrounded with as much protection as i can get!!

5) the late versions of the P47s if flown well ( stress this again! IF FLOWN WELL :)) could i think be a match for most of the late LW prop aircraft it was likely to meet.So at worst you have a sort of even chance and you can always use that superior dive to evade if it gets too scarey.

6) P38s having the extra safety of a twin engines is a big plus. However it applies more over vast stretches of open sea like the PAC theatre than over a Land based war where the two forces are engaged in a battle line in close proximity. And it just wasnt as manouverable as the P51 or P47 in several areas at least not until it got power ailerons.Also you have to use that crazy YOKE!!! ewwww :)

7) P47s 8x.50 cals cannot go without another mention!!

so there you have it!. Id choose the P47.

If it was based on which id like to fly and think is best through a personal choice of the 3 types then the jug is the most American looking beast of an aircraft and you Americans should be more proud of this than the P51!! nothing else has that American over extravance look just like your huge cadillac cars or enormous buildings etc. It is a totally different concept in aircraft design compared to all European type planes of the time and you went against all the rules and built a HUGE heavy fighter that dwarfed the oppersitions designs yet you maintained an amazingly manouverable weapon. American aircraft designer: "we cant build what? whoopee nazies!! we'll build em twice as big again!" heheh.
It did most of the dirty work for you (if not all of it in Europe early on) and took the brunt of the ground attack work toward the end of the War.The P51 has a MERLIN engine which as a Brit im proud of but the P47 had an all american design. For me if the hurricane was all British made and the spitfire was British made but with an American engine that made it suddenly more capable, Id say hats off to the Americans for making a good engine but it would invalidate the Spit for me as an all British aircraft and so the hurri would win. (just example ;)) Funny my favourite British aircraft is the 'Fairey Swordfish', favourite LW type is the 190 and fav US type is the P47, I think i got a thing for radial engined planes!

good fun post :)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2003, 10:36:23 AM by hazed- »

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2003, 10:47:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NOD2000
No, there is a good reason why the Germans refered to the P-38 as "The Forked tailed devil". The main reason that I understand is that they p-38's alisons didn't operate as well in the cold air (expecially at high alt in europe), plus I have also read that the aircraft upkeep by ground crews wasn't all that hot in europe.

 


the name forked tailed devils was given to the P38 by the crews of the ju52 transport aircraft trying to resupply Germans in Afrika. They were severely maulled by the P38s when they lost thier fighter escorts due to their lack of range. Similar thing happened to US forces later when they had B17/B24s with P47 escorts.

So the name WAS NOT given to the P38 by fighter pilots.

Like i said in above post there are several accounts of german pilots saying they prefered to engage P38s as they were easier to fight which to me suggests they didnt perform as well.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2003, 11:49:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
They just roamed the countryside and shot up everything that looked like an easy target.

Not too much risk involved, really.

HoHun....am I grabbing a big hook here, or are you serious?

- oldman

Offline Grendel

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« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2003, 12:14:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NOD2000
No, there is a good reason why the Germans refered to the P-38 as "The Forked tailed devil".


Except they didn't. That was invention of an American front lines journalist, who claimed that the German ground pounders called the P-38s with that name, when the planes were making ground attacks.

"The Forked tailed devil" is just a myth.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2003, 12:52:40 PM »
I cant remeber the name, but the Germans had a p-38 looking plane early in the war.  I think It may have been a Focke wulfe
189???  But I am not sure.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2003, 01:09:15 PM »
Hi Oldman,

>HoHun....am I grabbing a big hook here, or are you serious?

I'm serious.

It might be interesting to have a look at the escort fighters' orders to see whether they were assigned military targets to attack on their way back.

But whatever their orders were, there can be no doubt that in 1944 and '45, large numbers of Tieffliegern swarmed over Germany, attacking "targets of opportunity" virtually at random.

For escort fighters without heavy ordnance, returning in small units, "targets of opportunity" meant easy - read "undefended" - targets.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2003, 01:37:33 PM »
Whatever the fek the germans called the lightning.

They all cried out " SHEISSE" when they saw one incoming.
Like litle whiny babys,

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2003, 04:01:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
I'm serious.

Well, er, HoHun, I haven't done an analysis, but I'll bet that if I did, it would turn out that the US lost nearly as many fighters to ground fire as to air-to-air combat.  If not more.  Shooting staff cars is one thing, of course, but strafing airfields is quite another.

- oldman

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2003, 04:17:33 PM »
Hi Oldman,

>Well, er, HoHun, I haven't done an analysis, but I'll bet that if I did, it would turn out that the US lost nearly as many fighters to ground fire as to air-to-air combat.  

You might actually be right, but only for the entire USAAF. The 8th Air Force was waging a strategic air war, and they couldn't allow their fighter strength to be depleted by spontaneous attacks on well-defended targets.

"Target of opportunity" implies that the pilot personally decides whether an opportunity presents itself or whether the risk is too great.

With their lives on the line, I'm sure the fighter pilots had similar ideas about preservation of fighter strength as the 8th Air Force top brass :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2003, 09:27:43 PM »
When the 9th AF was stood up, they took the role of Air-to-ground.  They also escorted tactical bomber raids and then as HoHun stated, straffed whatever they could find on the way home.  Once that policy was made (to allow the USAAF hunt at will, without restriction)  then it was all she wrote.  This effort helpped the allied advance immensely, and depleted German war resources at an astounding rate.  Prior to the 9th AF standing up, some of the 8 AF unit CC's were given permission to go to the deck after their escort duty was over.  They straffed targets of oppertunity as well.
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Offline Grendel

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« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2003, 02:55:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Whatever the fek the germans called the lightning.

They all cried out " SHEISSE" when they saw one incoming.
Like litle whiny babys,


Rite :) Galland actually said it was the easiest to shoot down of all American fighters.

But sure it wasn't fun to be on the receiving end of its firepower. Like any other aircraft too.