german planes performances??!!

[Angus]

Does anyone here have that book, fighters over the desert? If you do, could you look up 22/11 1942 for me:)

[GScholz]

What's special about that date Angus?

[Angus]

Icelandic Ace Tony Jonsson claims a 109 at Bone airfield. Plane belly landed amongst the brits and Pilot was captured well and alive. Kill confirmed by Shores in his book Aces High, but is not mentioned by others, nor have I found the loss from the German side.
I have been trying to find the Pilot since year 2000 or so, and I have been both at the PRO and IWM photo archives, finding nothing but a  photo that was supposed to be of the wreck, but with further investigation it turned out not to be.
(None the less, the misunderstanding sort of confirmed the kill, they just photographed the wrong wreck)
Anyway, GScholz, do you have the book?

[GScholz]

Eh ... no. Sorry.

[Dowding]

The South Africans would have been flying as part of the RAF at that time. I doubt a man of Johnson's standing and experience (Wing Commander during and Air Chief Marshall after WW2, I think) would have not been aware of the RAF order of battle at that time.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Grendel
Yes, it goes both ways. It looks like AVG overclaims with at least 2:1-3:1 ratio. Historicians checking AVG claims from Japanese archives have found vast disparencies even from combats, which were well reported by both sides.

It goes even more interesting. It's been found out that AVG pilots actually bought kills from the British pilots, who were "just" fighting and not getting paid for their kills.

Information about that can be found for example from Dan Ford's site, http://www.danford.net and his discussion forums. Dan Ford is an AVG researcher and expert.

AVG pilots never bought kills from British pilots. That was a lie launched by a disgruntled RAF type who was highly annoyed that the AVG was getting $500 for each confirmed kill. He could never substantiate it and Chennault would have severely disciplined any pilot found to be doing so, as would the RAF. AVG members have threatened a law suit against anyone even suggesting that they purchased kills. Dan Ford has never made any such claim and does not believe it to be true. Dan writes: "I first ran across this question in Christopher Shores's Bloody Shambles, volume two, published by Grubb Street in 1993. If true, rumors of RAF victories "sold" or otherwise transferred to the AVG would have radically affected the conclusions I'd drawn in Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and the American Volunteer Group--not only in the number of victories I'd been able to attribute to the Tigers but, more important, my central assumption that these were honorable men. So I checked out the stories and concluded there was nothing to them."

As to their score against the Japanese; there were no surviving Japanese records. What does exist is a reconstruction of the records based upon the research of Japanese historians, some of whom have established that they have a axe to grind. Therefore, such "records" must taken with that in mind.

Dr. John Olynyk has examined the AVGs record and revised their score to 230 kills. Dr. Olynyk is recognized as being the foremost authority on the topic.

My regards,

Widewing

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Widewing
AVG pilots never bought kills from British pilots.

Actually this exact topic has been under more debate during last and this year, there's been wealth of new information about it. And from what I recollect, there has been quite definite cases of AVG pilots either buying or "receiving" kills from British pilots.

[Arlo]

Don't recollect .... cite.

Virtual Pilots Finland Society vs. Cradle of Aviation Museum.

[Hajo]

AHGOD.....in your earlier post...refering to my post.  Sorry I stated the facts.   Evidently something that eludes you.  Training was good for the Aces that started the war...read the first and the last by Galland.  By the end of the war plane production was up!
The LW had more fighters then trained pilots.  Read production figures for LW year 1944.  They hastily trained pilots, put them into aircraft and sent them up against US and British Flyers who were more well trained and rested....they did become Fodder.

Their bases straffed....sometimes moving their base  twice a week
because of allied fighter bomber straffing runs on their aerodromes.  Destroying the infratstructure so that moving those fields, getting supplies to them by truck etc was very difficult, not to mention getting any kind of av gas and oil for their machinery.

You read...might enlighten you some as to what the conditions were in 44 and 45 for LW Pilots

References: The First and the Last  A. Galland
                    The Luftwaffe Fighter Force
                      (a view from the top)  A.  Galland Et. al

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Grendel
Actually this exact topic has been under more debate during last and this year, there's been wealth of new information about it. And from what I recollect, there has been quite definite cases of AVG pilots either buying or "receiving" kills from British pilots.

Bah! There's no credible evidence whatsoever.

I count several of the AVG as personal friends, including Dick Rossi, Chuck Baisden and the late Erik Shilling. I am also the only person authorized by R.T. Smith's family to publish R.T.'s diary on the web.

There's little I don't know about the AVG and I've heard every rediculous rumor ever uttered dozens of times. I also know that no AVG pilot ever accepted or asked for (read that as bought) any kills from the RAF in Burma. Hell, the RAF took a beating in Burma, completely ignoring the advice of Chennault on how to fight the Japanese. Meanwhile, the AVG ran them ragged.

Dan Ford has spent more time researching the AVG than anyone else, and he dismissed claims of "kill buying".

I spent a great deal of time researching the Curtiss Tomahawks sold to China in an effort to establish that they were not Tomahawk IIB types as proposed by Dan, but actually hybrids manufactured using spares remaining from the previous Tomahawk IIA/P-40B production. After Erik and I presented my research and supported by Erik's own experience, Dan has concluded that the AVG aircraft were indeed, hybrids (the contract with Curtiss allowed Curtiss to build these fighters with the Tomahawk IIA fuel system, rather than that on the IIB, which had different fuel tanks and a provision for an external drop tank not found on any AVG fighters). What's my point? My point is that you will need genuine, unrefutable and verifiable evidence or you will be dismissed and labeled a rumor monger, just as Shores was for publishing his unsubstantiated tripe.

More than 60 years after the AVG was disbanded, people come out of the woodwork with rediculous and highly insulting claims directed at the few surviving Flying Tigers, all in their 80's now. Had anyone presented these men with these outrageous claims 40 years ago, they'd be regurgitating what remained of their natural teeth.

So, if you have some real evidence, present it. But, be advised that what Joe Average considers to be evidence is usually miles away from what trained historians will accept as minimal basis for review. Until you have written a Master's thesis to be submitted for review (including peer review) you can have no idea how difficult and daunting it can be to prove an argument that goes counter to generally accepted postulation of the discipline. In other words, you have to go a long, long way to prove something initially deemed counter-factual to the current history. The bar is set very high and falling short is not an option.

My regards,

Widewing