Author Topic: Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?  (Read 6110 times)

Offline Mini D

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #165 on: September 27, 2003, 11:47:36 AM »
The cops were shooting from as close as 20 feet.  No police officers were killed... I believe only 2 were injured.  I actually aluded to this scene above.  This had nothing to do with the ease of obtaining or use of assault weapons.  Most officers interviewed were frustrated that their handguns and shotguns were completely ineffective against the body armor the robbers were wearing.

But... feel free to present it in any light you see fit.  Don't let the facts get in the way.  No skin of my nose either.

By the way... didn't that happen in a state where "assault" weapons are banned?

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Offline Mini D

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #166 on: September 27, 2003, 11:55:51 AM »
My mistake: 10 police officers were injured.  The only fatalities were the bank robbers.

A cnn article on it

A quote from the article:
Quote
Stunned officers were out-gunned to such a degree that at one point they burst into a gun store, and walked out with more powerful guns and ammunition.

Police "came in a panic because their weapons weren't good enough to fight these people," said the store's president, who would identify himself only as Bob.

"These people had body armor and they needed something that would break body armor," he said. "We supplied them with slugs that would at least break bones on someone wearing body armor."
It's a classic CNN situation.  "Outgunned" and "assault weapons" are key phrases that are inserted whenever a certain effect is sought.

MiniD
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 11:59:52 AM by Mini D »

Offline Tarmac

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2003, 11:57:22 AM »
Shortly after the North Hollywood shootout, the police bought a stock of M16's to augment their typical shotgun armament.  

In that shooting, it was the armor that kept the criminals from being taken down.  They could have been carrying pistols, or a "non-assault" rifle (ie semi-auto, full rifle round) and the police wouldn't have taken them down any sooner.  

There are two equipment factors that made the North Hollywood shootings possible:  
1.  criminals with body armor
2.  police with weapons that couldn't pierce body armor

Notice I didn't mention assault weapons.  Like I said earlier, the criminals would still have done what they did, assault rifle or not.  The body count might have been lower, but it wouldn't have prevented the entire incident.

Offline Dune

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2003, 12:05:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
I have no idea what a .223 round would do to a human body.  

An assault rifle would have to be at least a 5.56mm round in my opinion...a military weapon.  That would be my definition of an assault rifle and this caliber is the only type of weapon I have fired.

The GPMG was 7.62mm and would break apart the concrete blocks with ease.

Should they be readily availiable on the market too?  Not too good for hunting...but really good at scattering civilians and police officers.


We all know what a AR-15 looks like, so I wont bother posting a picture of it.  It shoots the 5.56m or .223 cartridge.  The NATO standard M885 bullet weighs 62 grains (or 1 Grain = 0.0648 grams) and leaves the muzzle at a velocity of about 3,025 feet per second.

This is a Browning BAR (for Browning Automatic Rifle):

It is the most popular semi-auto hunting rifle used in the US today.  (I used to own one before I went to Winchester bolt-guns)  It has a three round magazine and is usually very accurate out of the box.  It comes in a variety of calibers, but for this instance, we'll go with the largest, the .338 Winchester Magnum.  (BTW, you can buy this rifle at any gun store in the US.  It's only a hunting rilfe after all).  You can, from Federal Ammunition, buy, over the counter at any gunstore, a .338 cartridge loaded with 225grain Barnes X-Bullets which are solid bullets.  They have a muzzle velocity of 2800fps.

Now children, let's compare the two bullets using a ballistic calculator (and remember, both come out of a semi-auto weapon and the BAR is as accurate if not more so):
AR-15 - .62grn @ 3025fps = 1259ft/lbs of energy
BAR - 225grn @ 2800fps = 3916ft/lbs.

And let's throw in what's known as the Taylor KO ratio (this is a formula invented by a famous big-game hunter to show which bullets have a better chance of killing a thick-skined animal)

AR-15 = 5
BAR = 30

Once again, which is more dangerous and which do you think should be sold to the public?

Offline Curval

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2003, 12:11:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
But... feel free to present it in any light you see fit.  Don't let the facts get in the way.  No skin of my nose either.
MiniD


And these are facts huh?  You gonna back that up or should I just assume the word of MiniD is the word of God?
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Curval

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2003, 12:16:05 PM »
Ahh..nice edit MiniD.

But thanks for making my argument.  I guess CNN is just doing what I did and misrepresented the "facts".
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline type_char

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2003, 12:24:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
which is why we don't let 10 & 11 year olds go buy guns.


Even as an adult, Im still very apprehensive about owning a gun. If I werent I would probably have a bunch of guns. Then there was that time when some crooks broke into my car and I went outside and caught them and gave chase with my car. The morons ended up crashing their own car and the cops came and apprehended four little thugs with a trunk full of Kenwoods and Alpines. I was a good distance behind them so they just crashed on their own. Anyways, what if I had a gun in that situation? This was a long time ago as well during a time when people kept breaking into our cars. So to be honest, I dont know if its a great idea for myself to own a gun cas I would rather not go to jail forever for something stupid. Then again, I  would like to have some form of defense in case of a breakin and just for shooting at the range. Probably wont own three guns, maybe just one but then Im not sure. I know anything can happen because of stuff like this.The overall point is that stupid people still ruin it for the rest.

Offline Dune

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2003, 12:31:55 PM »
Char, I can understand your feelings.

I have a friend who owns quite a few guns.  Guns of all types.  His wife was a state trooper at one time and he works for the gov't.  He's ex-military and is very good with weapons.  I asked him once why he doesn't have a concealed carry permit (they are availible with a training class and a background check here in Arizona).

He told me it's becuase he has a temper and doesn't want the temptation.  He knows his limitations and doesn't put himself in a situation where it might cause him problems.  He also doesn't let that keep him from enjoying shooting sports.

My point is this, he is aware of himself and is responsible enough to do this.  Which makes him the type of person who should be able to own any gun he wants.  Because he's aware of their capabilities and gives them the respect they deserve.

Offline wrag

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2003, 12:38:07 PM »
Hmmm I seem to recall that there is a Preamble to the Bill of Rights.


I suggest you read it.  It states that the rights herein are inalienable.  I also suggest you read some of the statements made by Thomas Pain, Thomas Jefferson, ETC.....

I'm inclined to think that this was the intention of the 1st 10 amendments to the bill of rights.

As to why anyone would need an "Assault Rifle"  (here i have to pause because to my knowledge there is NO SUCH THING, it is a Fraze dreamed up by someone named Sugerman with the intention of demonizing firearms.)  YOU DO!  

Why? because even if you don't like it, even if you don't want it, you are in the militia!  READ it!  The information is out there!  U.S. Army manuals contain the info.  Even lays down the age of those that must serve.

And the oath reads "against all enemies foreign and domestic".

Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist papers for a better understanding of the constitution, and in particular the 2nd amendment, and it's purpose!

The people of Germany trusted their government and gave it more and more power just as we are doing.  I shudder to think of what could be if an unscrupulous individual gets into power with the controls our government now has in place!

Do you really believe the world is all nicey nice???

Do you really believe there are no bad people???

The supreme courts has said/ruled that the Government/law enforcement is NOT required to protect you!  The responsibility for you and your families protection lies upon YOU!

GO AHEAD ASK ME WHY :D (history repeats itself so you'll get allot of history)
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline type_char

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2003, 12:39:34 PM »
Well if I lived in the country side outside of the city, I would definitaly own a few guns and definatly a rilfe/shotgun and lots of ammo.  Maybe even an AR-15 if I live in the woods out of nowhere for bigfoot protection. Since I live in the city, I would perhaps keep one gun at home and the rest at the range so I dont have trigger happy thoughts. I would keep a bat or some nunchucks available first and make the gun a bit less convenient to prepare for action. I admit it, I think I am trigger happy to some extent.

As a kid, I had a collection of gun magazines that was two feet thick.

Offline medicboy

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2003, 01:03:04 PM »
ROFLMAO,    You people are too funny.     Ok background:  Paramedic for 10 years, degree in criminal justice and have worked as a swat medic.  Life member of the NRA, and the North American Hunting Club.  Proud gun owner, none of which have ever injured or killed another human , but have placed a lot of food on my families table.  

Go faster:  I get the impression that you believe it is the cops job to protect you and your family...  this is a fatal mistake.  99% of the time the cops don't get called until after the crime happens.  They might catch the guy in the end, but that won't do your family any good.  In the last 10 years as a medic, most of the gunshot victoms I have treated (say 90%) are self inflicted and intentional, meaning suicide.  People that really want to die will get the job done any way possible and these gun shot stats should not be included in your #'s.   The vast majority of assult inflicted injuries done with a "deadly" weapon are done with a knife.  What do you want to do now, ban people from owning knives, what whould we chop our vegitables with or carve our steaks with????  A gun is a tool, it is no more deadly than a hammer or a skill saw, in fact I am willing to bet more people are hospitalized by power tools than guns.  I know more people die from automobile related incidents than from guns.  Just yesterday I went on a car crash, high speed head on, 2 dead, 4 critical.  Cause:  On old man that leaned over to get his glasses off the seat next to him...  Maybe we should ban old people!!!!!  In fact the last set of stats from the US dept of health I saw said mistakes made by Doctors were responsible for way more deaths than guns...  Maybe we should ban doctors!!!

My point is this, try blaming the real problem instead of an inaminate object.  Guns don't go running down the street shooting people, there is always a finger on that trigger and that finger is connected to the real problem.  If (and this could never happen)  we banned all guns and all the bad guys turned in their guns, do you think this will turn them into good guys???  Or will the # of fights, roberies, rapes, home invasions say the same or even go up?  You see my point?  The people that commit these crimes are still the same....   In fact, ya some will turn to knives and fists to get done what they want done, but some will go down to the hardware store and buy the stuff to make a bomb, now would you rather get attacked by someone with a gun or a bomb???

That said, I dont own any "assault weapons".  Every game animal I have taken has been taken with a bolt action rifle.  I dont have any use for a semi auto rifle, I feel strongly that rapid fire is the crutch of an incompetent marksman.  I live by one shot, one kill.    I however don't have a problem with people owning "assault rifles".    If you live in an area that you have to worry that much about people comming after your family, than move to a better part of town or the state.    I would feel a lot safer walking around florida than LA, florida is a shall issue state and there are many law abiding citizens carrying concealed guns there to protect you.  In california only the criminals are aloud to carry guns...    

MUCKMAW:    in your situation the first line of defense should be a very big DOG, it will also double as a great playmate for your 3 year old.     Golf clubs, baseball bats and other simmilar things are very poor items for defence.  #1, try to swing a golf club in your hall way...   Not easy.  #2:  you have to get close enough to use them, that puts you in hand to hand combat range... very bad situation.     I don't recomend you using any gun unless you are willing and able to practice and care for that gun right.  Letting a gun sit around for long periods of time then expecting it to work right when its all on the line is a recipe for disaster.    Put the best bolt locks on your doors, buy an alarm system (this will make almost all intruders run) and get a large dog that is protective of the family (ie: not a lab, way too friendly, something like a german shepard)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 01:10:54 PM by medicboy »

Offline pugsly

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2003, 01:36:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by medicboy
ROFLMAO,    You people are too funny.     Ok background:  Paramedic for 10 years, degree in criminal justice and have worked as a swat medic.  Life member of the NRA, and the North American Hunting Club.  Proud gun owner, none of which have ever injured or killed another human , but have placed a lot of food on my families table.  

Go faster:  I get the impression that you believe it is the cops job to protect you and your family...  this is a fatal mistake.  99% of the time the cops don't get called until after the crime happens.  They might catch the guy in the end, but that won't do your family any good.  In the last 10 years as a medic, most of the gunshot victoms I have treated (say 90%) are self inflicted and intentional, meaning suicide.  People that really want to die will get the job done any way possible and these gun shot stats should not be included in your #'s.   The vast majority of assult inflicted injuries done with a "deadly" weapon are done with a knife.  What do you want to do now, ban people from owning knives, what whould we chop our vegitables with or carve our steaks with????  A gun is a tool, it is no more deadly than a hammer or a skill saw, in fact I am willing to bet more people are hospitalized by power tools than guns.  I know more people die from automobile related incidents than from guns.  Just yesterday I went on a car crash, high speed head on, 2 dead, 4 critical.  Cause:  On old man that leaned over to get his glasses off the seat next to him...  Maybe we should ban old people!!!!!  In fact the last set of stats from the US dept of health I saw said mistakes made by Doctors were responsible for way more deaths than guns...  Maybe we should ban doctors!!!

My point is this, try blaming the real problem instead of an inaminate object.  Guns don't go running down the street shooting people, there is always a finger on that trigger and that finger is connected to the real problem.  If (and this could never happen)  we banned all guns and all the bad guys turned in their guns, do you think this will turn them into good guys???  Or will the # of fights, roberies, rapes, home invasions say the same or even go up?  You see my point?  The people that commit these crimes are still the same....   In fact, ya some will turn to knives and fists to get done what they want done, but some will go down to the hardware store and buy the stuff to make a bomb, now would you rather get attacked by someone with a gun or a bomb???

That said, I dont own any "assault weapons".  Every game animal I have taken has been taken with a bolt action rifle.  I dont have any use for a semi auto rifle, I feel strongly that rapid fire is the crutch of an incompetent marksman.  I live by one shot, one kill.    I however don't have a problem with people owning "assault rifles".    If you live in an area that you have to worry that much about people comming after your family, than move to a better part of town or the state.    I would feel a lot safer walking around florida than LA, florida is a shall issue state and there are many law abiding citizens carrying concealed guns there to protect you.  In california only the criminals are aloud to carry guns...    

MUCKMAW:    in your situation the first line of defense should be a very big DOG, it will also double as a great playmate for your 3 year old.     Golf clubs, baseball bats and other simmilar things are very poor items for defence.  #1, try to swing a golf club in your hall way...   Not easy.  #2:  you have to get close enough to use them, that puts you in hand to hand combat range... very bad situation.     I don't recomend you using any gun unless you are willing and able to practice and care for that gun right.  Letting a gun sit around for long periods of time then expecting it to work right when its all on the line is a recipe for disaster.    Put the best bolt locks on your doors, buy an alarm system (this will make almost all intruders run) and get a large dog that is protective of the family (ie: not a lab, way too friendly, something like a german shepard)



Very good post and advice.
as far as a dog goes try an Akita i have one and nothing gets past her LOL.

Offline MrCoffee

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #177 on: September 27, 2003, 01:37:02 PM »
Arent you leaving California. Jeeze, perhaps you should try to spend more time in the city. California aint so bad you know.

:)

Offline medicboy

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #178 on: September 27, 2003, 02:05:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrCoffee
Arent you leaving California. Jeeze, perhaps you should try to spend more time in the city. California aint so bad you know.

:)


Yep, Oct 25th is my last day working here in the "golden" state.  After a 10 day elk hunt in Idaho, I will be comming back to get the wife, kid and the rest of my stuff and moving to Montana.  

I was born in Riverside, I know what the "city" is like, no thanks wouldn't do that again, ever.  BTW Montana is a shall issue state as well, very low incidents of violent crime there, just the occasional fight.  Definatly no gang bangers.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 02:08:09 PM by medicboy »

Offline capt. apathy

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Q: What's the difference between a sportsman and a criminal?
« Reply #179 on: September 27, 2003, 02:21:13 PM »
Quote
I remember watching a news event where two bank robbers with significant body armour got involved in a shoot out with police in the US. The rounds the cops were firing were useless against these guys and they were armed to the teeth with assault rifles.

I also remember the frustration and anger reported by the officers involved in the event when interviewed afterwards.

I suggest you chat with them about the issue..it's no skin off my nose...you live there and I live here. I just hope when I'm visiting the US something like that doesn't happen anywhere near me.



in that shoot-out the cops went to a nearby gun store to get more powerful weapons (which they couldn't have done where these weapons not legal) to use against the criminals (who where bank robbers, so I doubt if they'd have used lesser weaponry if the ones they where using where decided to be ileagal. why would a criminal care if he broke 1 more law?)

to those who remember the news footage from this.  did they get "assault rifles" from the store? It's been a while but I thought they used regular style hunting riffles.