Buff guns - proposal

[aknimitz]

Ok - bomber guns are simply ridiculous.  It takes a very small amount of pings from a B17/B26 or even Lancaster at times to inflict serious damage.  The reason of course is because all of the guns that can see the plane are firing at it. I think the damage that the guns do needs to be examined in the first place.

But, assuming there is no desire to change the damage model, why not make a gunner mandatory?  Its not like the gunner would have to sit in the bomber the entire flight.  The only time he would need to be there would be when the plane is under attack.  I know it sucks unjoining players, but perhaps something could be done to make that easier as well?  Right now, I think bomber gunnery is ridiculously overmodeled, and would really like to see something done about it.

Thanks for listening, comments welcome.

Nim

[Urchin]

Nimitz- I feel the exact same way every time a bomber gets me.  But when it comes down to it, when you (or I) get shot down by ANYTHING, we did something wrong.  I've been flying the Dora this tour.  Previously I flew the 190A8.  I had a LOT of success against buffs in the 190A8, I think I was somewhere around 4 or 5 to 1 against all types.  In the Dora I'm not doing so hot.  I've got to make more than two passes on most of them, because 2 20mm cannons and 2 MGs just don't punch holes in things like 2x20mm and 2x30mm cannons do.  

Do I think that the buff gun damage needs to be toned down?  No, not really.  Do I think that the angle that some of the guns can fire at needs to be looked at?  Absolutely.  

For instance- the nose and tail guns on the Lanc can fire at the same target if it is approaching from the side.  I think it needs to be looked at.  

On the B17- the waist guns can fire THROUGH the wings- it needs to be fixed.  The ball turret can fire UP through the fuselage of the plane- it needs to be fixed.  The top turret can fire through the tail- that probably needs to be fixed.  The cheek guns can actually fire through the nose of the planes at fighters attacking from the other side of the nose- it needs to be fixed.

Thats just about all I can think of right now.  In the mean time, I'd recommend either attacking from the side in a slashing attack (which I do)- or waiting for a countryman to attack and then going at the buff from a different angle (which I also do).  And believe me, I feel your pain.  Every time I got shot down by a buff I get so frustrated I feel like punching a hole in the wall- but it really does boil down to the fact that I screwed up something in my approach.

[Fariz]

Buff guns are ok. Just exactly fine as they are. Make them better, and even those who know how to deal with buffs now will be in trouble, make them less powerful -- and majority of buffs will start flying it to 30k again.

Just never give them a chance for a clear shot. Get alt, get speed, get angle, with such big targets it is hard to miss. Make something they are not waiting for, and their tracers will be away from you.

Leave guns as they are  

Fariz

[minus]

huh try it  b 17 vs 190a8 at 30 k try it !! damit

make them mushy about 20 k the  guner  control  in ruder input roll are to fast and SHake the guns when they shoting !!!! that wil be not to hard to implement and it wil surely reduce  1.0 super shoters

[Urchin]

Actually- I'll give you a good example of my latest episode of bad judgement.  

I took off in my Dora to find out why there was a red bar in one of our sectors.  I climbed to 15k and lo and behold saw a dot headed my way.  It was a B-17.  I decided to engage- but I did it on my terms.  I climbed until I was at 20k (about 6k above him), and rolled over and dove vertically.  I landed some hits, and he had a fuel leak.  I continued to make passes, staying at around 400 mph, and I made the passes short but sweet.  I never flew directly at him until I was within 600 yards or so, enough for a short burst and then I'd break off.

I swear I stalked this guy for 10 minutes, never getting farther than d2.0, but never closer than 1.5 unless I was attacking.  He was a newbie in the B-170 I could tell because he stayed on a straight and level course the entire time (well, almost).  He never used his rudder to swing the plane around so that I was always attacking his 6 (I won't attack those guys, it is to risky).

I continued making short, slashing attacks.  I got two fuel tanks (1 in each wing)- and two engines (also 1 in each wing).  I don't know what other damage he sustained, that was all I noticed.  This was the result of perhaps 10 passes.

I began to get impatient.  That was the beginning of the end for me.  I came in hard from his 3 OC, fired, then rolled over him and immediately broke back into him instead of continuing to set up another pass.  I was approaching from his 7 or 8 OC- I got within d600 before he found me.  We opened fire at the same instant, I must have missed, but he took my wingtip off with his burst.  I got lucky and ditched a 190 that had come by, and got home to ditch.  (Went for the landing, but I hit to hard and broke the gear, slid short of the runway).

If you can see what I'm talking about- my losing my wingtip there was due to MY poor judgement.  I'm lucky I only lost a wingtip there.  Had I contined around for another pass, I would have worn him down eventually.

[Replicant]

Nothing wrong with buff guns, it's when the attacker gets frustrated and does something wrong.  I fly buffs a fair amount and I get my fair share of kills and deaths and for those that take their time will nearly always get their kill.  I'm sure if this was real life you wouldn't go charging in and hoping you wouldn't get hit.  Also if you wingup then you'll almost always get the kill on the buff.

Leave the guns alone, just take your time and plan your approach.

Nexx

[minus]

ok then all u super atakers  i em not sharp in B 17 gunery but try to take down mitzu for exaple or  ani other in 1 vs 1 and tell me then :-))

[Wotan]

after playin in ct I wish there was away to reduce icon range for buff gunners (wishfull thinking) but buffs die alot more then they kill.

I hate it when i come in hi fast and a few pings later Im in pieces due to very few hits.

However if buffs were every made less defensable I would never fly them.

Attack ET a few in a b26 you soon realise how to go at umm.

[Karnak]

minus,

Are you saying that the buff should usually lose with one of the best buff gunners manning its guns?

That would mean that us mortals would always loose.

And that would mean that all but the most mashochistic would never fly buffs.

After all, who wants to spend half an hour trying to get to a target only to have the first fighter you come across make a sloppy attack and kill you every time?

[minus]

realy ???

so when i fly ju 88 and get atacked be plane all my deseperate manovers to prolonge the dieig agony i can live with that so why cant be a b17  b26 or lancaster more muchy above 20 k  they can flat turn around you without losing speed   why the guns on buffs cant shake ?  it will reduce acuracy of buff guner from 1.3 maybe around 0.9 is it so much ?

 LW plane for sucesful atack need to get close  / if any 1 manage to kill a b 17 that usualy becose guner is not ready  not watching you or newbie, if guner waiting you  the probabylity  to kill buff go very low but u surely will miss  wingtip

was lately on my very rare b 17 run  2 niki tryed to  bounce me , por bugers kiled them  at 1.0 distance  they never get more close

i flying many ju88 and my best defense  in ju 88 is NOT alt not SPEED but a praying to not cros any enemy fighter  

[MANDOBLE]

Actually, to kill effectively a buff you need the surprise factor, a tremendous energy advantage, or a wingman.
If the buff driver is average or above average, no matter what you do, you'll be killed or severely damaged more than 80% of the times, unless you fly HogC, Tempest or Typhoon (all of them hispano armed planes).

A single Lancaster is able to close an entire base, a single B17 is able to kill all the acks, fuel, radar, etc of a single base. Both buff types are highly valuable targets, and primary keys to conquer bases or stop enemy attacks. They should work with scort, not alone, or spent an ethernity to climb to 30k, anything but increasing their impact in the game giving them a formidable deffense system.
Think in that:
A single player driving a buff is more than capable of ruining the flight of 3 or 4 players driving interceptors with minimal effort. After that, that single player is more than capable of frustrating an entire country bombing a key base, again, with minimal effort. IMO, too much concesions for a single player.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:

Think in that:
A single player driving a buff is more than capable of ruining the flight of 3 or 4 players driving interceptors with minimal effort. After that, that single player is more than capable of frustrating an entire country bombing a key base, again, with minimal effort. IMO, too much concesions for a single player.

Mandoble, you're talking a load of rubbish!  You're saying that it's too much concessions for a single player?  Next you'll be saying that you need 2 or 3 goonies next to capture a base because 1 goon/M3 is too much concession for a single player - frustrating people who wanted to fly from that base.

Sigh, I've seen it all now.  I've seen single fighters close bases before too....

Regards

Nexx

[Kingonads]

I dont think they should touch the buff guns,  yeah they R a bit too powerful but take into acount the deflection or lack therefor of. I see too many fighters tring to come up on the low 6 of a buff or high 6 and thats just plain suicide.  U R fling into a hail storm of 12.7mm X 99mm for the US bombers now U R talking about at a avg rate of fire at 600RPM for the US M2 .50cal lets say the gunner holds the trigger down for a second hmmm that would be about 6 rounds fired off from each gun and each round is traveling around 1200ft per sec (est) and U R traveling the opposite direction at 300+ MPH...... if U hit a bird at that speed it would kill your plane it just depends on the location of the damage.  I love my fighters but U know the buffs are already really easy to kill with most planes.  So many have cried about the buff guns be4 I dont think they should be changed at all.  after all its a game and the bombers need a chance too because a mass formation of B17s dont happen very often in here.

                           Hodo

[DamnedATC]

The buff guns I think are set about right as far as lethality are concerned.  The feature of all guns being aimed by a single gunner cold be solved best by:  

Having each gun position have the ability to be manned by a different person.  Also, if a postion is empty, you can jump from one position to another.  Would be nice to bring along up to 7 gunners for example on a B17.

ATC
 

[StSanta]

One suggestion:

Disable rudder turning when the pilot is in the gunner position.

Those turnin 'n burnin buffs are annoying. They had the guns upped so they could fly "traditionally". With the new style of flying in buffs with lotta rudder inout, they don't need it