Author Topic: Real World Tactics?  (Read 628 times)

SpinDry

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 1999, 04:57:00 PM »
Yah, Toad, methinks we're mostly on the same track here.  I'm not willing to extrapolate the future by generalizing over one data point but, like someone said up there, good ideas need idealistic visionaries to keep them alive until some part of them takes root.  I think I already stood up that the 24/7 type game won't work with this, IMHO.  I am keen on seeing more controlled situations where the idea can be tested, though.  DoK organized some kick-ass scenarios that weren't the regular order of business for the AW arenas, and I'd bet my last case of old Scotch that Ish will keep plugging until he gets a chance to work out something similar for special AH sessions.  There oughta be something for everyone, or at least most people (something just for dweebs leads to images I don't want to think about) and I bet some of the AH crowd, whoever that turns out to be, will want to take a stab at some "one life to live" alter ego stuff with advancement and all that Ish has dreamed up.

Oh, the guy who got the boot wasn't over not following the rules of the scenario, it was for generally being the kind of obnoxious pain in the bellybutton who ought to be flying in properly Hate-filled venues.  I actually like the gomer.  <g>

SpinDry

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 1999, 04:58:00 PM »
Oh, yeah:  I actually DO work for the Feds.  Fear me.  Bwahahahaha!

Bolter

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 1999, 05:03:00 PM »
Basically, its a GAME.

Thats why "death" can't be realistically modelled.  

People wouldnt play paintball if one hit killed them for the rest of the day.

The best a game system can do is punish deaths by some type of scoring system, and try to make "deaths" negative enough to prevent suicide tactics, while keeping the player interested and a paying customer.  People are here to have fun, not adhere to exact real world conditions.  That's why you don't need several months of training before they allow you to pick up a Thrustmaster.

<S> To all, it is a very interesting topic, and Ishmael, your motives are noble.

Offline Downtown

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 1999, 06:02:00 PM »
Let me just reinterate a few points here.

You will recognize them.
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Toad
Junior Member   posted 09-24-1999 04:08 PM              
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My primary observation is that the OAE idea is extrapolated from a very limited and not necessarily relevant testing protocol.
1. We asked a few guys what they thought was lacking in on-line ACM.

OK, fine...good idea.

2. We came up with an idea that might work.

Super, press on.

3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.

Uh-oh...this is not a representative sample of on-line acm-ers is it?

4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.

So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?

5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.

...and the "pay-to-play" element was totally missing.

6. We, the originators of this idea, were the sole judges of success or failure of the experiment. We found it succeeded beyond our expectations.

Raise any red flags here?

7. We now declare this concept fully validated and ready for "prime time".

Say, you don't work for the U.S. Government by any chance do you? <g>


As HT pointed out, not everyone plays for the same reasons. For everyone seeking the elusive "true realism" there are apparently herds of paying customers crowding into what are basically "fantasy" arenas.

Without going into the "but they didn't do it MY way" argument, it's clear that the AW FR arenas and the WB HA arenas don't get the play that the Mains attract. Perhaps the unwashed paying masses like what they like?

I think it's a bit premature to suggest that OAE is "the" answer based on such a limited test.

Still, that is not to say the idea has no merit. It just really hasn't ever been tested in the pay-to-play environment. I think HT is pretty smart in going with what he knows and what he knows will work, rather than betting the farm on an essentially untested hypothesis.

Always time to experiment _after_ you've paid a few bills.
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My one additional point, that ISH refuses to discuss concerning that guy that got kicked out for not being Gung Ho enough.

There are enough of those types, that would ABSOLUTELY RUIN ISH'S OAE CONCEPT.

Now ISH please expound on how the OAE Concept deals with dweebery in a 24/7 Flight Sim market.

Thank in advance.

Toad, you stated your points, I don't really feel they needed restating, just re-emphasizing.
 

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

Offline jmccaul

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 1999, 07:07:00 PM »
Hey Ish if you really believe in your idea why not make it yourself. The flying circus guys did it in there spare time, just read this interview  http://www.combatsim.com/fl-circus.htm  

Offline eagl

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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 1999, 07:54:00 PM »
Toad,

I thought the 1 thing games of this type was missing was the ME-163....?

On a completely different note... I'm a flight lead now in RL. Passed my flight lead checkride this week, just in time to get a few lead sorties under my belt before heading off to Texas to be a T-37 IP at Sheppard AFB this November.  Ironic, but at least it's a flying assignment.

Hmmm, maybe not so far off topic.  No matter whether I risk my life at the hands of the Iraqis or UPT students, my flight pay is the same and I only get one life to mess with.  Sorta like the fighter vs. stuka comparision?  No?  Ah well I tried.

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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Downtown

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 1999, 08:11:00 PM »
Who makes the seats in the T-37, and are they rocket assisted?

I saw what happened to a Phillippeno GIB who ejected into the ground at Clark.  Lost an engine on take off, and the plane rolled just right.

So how long to set up your ISP in Texas?

Don't let Uncle Sam ship you puter, carry it in your car (Truck in Texas) and unpack it as soon as you get to the BOQ?

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

Offline eagl

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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 1999, 08:24:00 PM »
Rockets... Hah.  The T-37 uses the charge from an artillery shell or something equally subtle to start the seat up the rails.  You gotta be something like 100 ft up and 100 knots to even hope that the chute will open in time.  I've heard stories about people who have ejected from the T-37 while stopped on the ramp... They do a half-gainer and land on their face about 50 ft behind the plane, usually still strapped in to the seat.

I plan on hauling some of my stuff to Texas myself for 2 reasons.  First and most important, I don't want some stuff damaged on the way.  Second and also nice, the USAF will pay me something like 2/3 of what they'd pay a freight company if I move some of my own stuff.  It's by the pound, so if I haul the max load my car is allowed to tow, I should make a few hundred bucks.  I'm hoping to make the trip pay for the cost of the trailer hitch and trailer  

I dunno about network hookups in Wichita Falls TX, but I'm hoping for DSL  


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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Ozymandias_KoK

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 1999, 10:40:00 PM »
Sandbags.  

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TKoKFKA-OZDS-

ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 1999, 03:06:00 PM »
3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.
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The sample was the best I could get. It included many players who were originally sceptical that the format could work.

What choice did I have? I could only ask for volunteers. But I did try to recruit from both hardcore and casual player elements.

As for the one guy who was booted, this would not have been necissary on an automated system.

Because we had no automation, we had to rely on the honour of the participants to abide by the limitations of the test. None of the system's rules were incorporated into the server architecture, so anyone who wanted to cheat could very easily get away with it - most of the time.

If the rule system was innate to the gaming environment, it would not have been possible to cheat (without hacking into the server). Our only recourse, to maintain the integrety of the system, was to eliminate players who I suspected of cheating (there was only one).

For the record, the one guy who got booted actually did enjoy the game. I think his problem was that he was only about 11 years old! :-)  (though he was good pilot, he lacked the maturity to abide by the honour system)

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4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?
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No. But again, I am not a robot. I had ZERO automation capabilities at my disposal. All records were TRACKED BY HAND - with a pencil and calculater. I could only run the test on a limited basis - as my employer wished to see my face at the office from time to time.

Are you suggesting that unless a TEST recreates 100% of the conditions of actual use it has NO value??? The test has enourmous value if only for the fact that it was the first time anyhting like it had been tried!!!

Let me ask you this. If all the players had quit in disgust, boredom or frustration, would you then suggest their reaction was no indication of the validity of the system???? Of course not!

But when the players rave about the game and it attracts attention from people who once said it would never work; when others start to copy its format - many of whom once swore they'd never play under such conditions; when other players make new rules to further enhance the OAE concept; THIS....THIS you say has no value???

Your motives are clearly suspect.

You can easily find holes in this test large enough to drive an elephant through. But it's the possabilities it indicates that are intriguing to those with open minds. It does in fact lend support to an innovative concept that has a real shot at making the online experience more fun and exciting for us all.

If the test can be improved on - then improve it!!! I dare YOU to prove me wrong! Adopt the Historical War rules wholesale and try it.


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5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.
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So....Aces High's own Beta Test will also be initially free. You gotta start somewhere. It's on the BASIS of such a test that a decision is made on whether an idea is commercially viable.

It also provides a "hook" to get players involved before asking for money. Had I asked for money (impossible of course under RB3D) to test an untried concept, I would have had maybe two volunteers. :-)

But if you asked the participants NOW if they would pay for a 24/7 OAE war - I'd be surprised if 100% of them did not say yes.

Yet was it this test that convinced me my idea would work?

No.

I was already convinced.

The test was performed to provide some measure of emperical evidence to support my convictions.

I encountered all the arguments from the naysayes prior to the test. I've heard all the arguments before. But after the test, the stories completely changed - because the skeptics heard the first hand reports from the participants and knew the participants as respectable and trustworthy members of the community.

I don't feel the need to convince you - because I know you are beyond convincing. Not until you have actually played under this system on a 24/7 automated environment will you change your point of view - and only then with the utmost reluctance.

I could have argued till I was blue in the face on Delphi. It wouldn't have changed one opinion. Not until I actually made it happen and showed how exciting and fun MMP could really be did anything change.

I have answered your questions to the best of my ability - but I have no further interest in debating this subject (I'm sure you will be relieved to hear) ;-)

If anyone has a real interest in UNDERSTANDING the system (rather than "proving" why it won't work) I welcome your questions. If anyone has any ideas on how an OAE system might be implemented on the server architecture without requiring a major financial investment, please post! If you have any proposals on how the OAE system might be best applied to achieve an ideal balance, please offer this up for consideration.

But I'm through with the debate. The skeptics will not be swayed by words on a page, and the question is settled in my mind.

ISHMAEL

Offline Ping

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 1999, 07:12:00 AM »
"But I'm through with the debate. The skeptics will not be swayed by words on a page,and the question is settled in my mind.
                    ISHMAEL"


 That to me sounds like you are not testing with an open mind ISH. Prejudicial testing never works IMO.
 Your concept I could see working in a scenario, but as for 24/7 its asking a bit much. Talk to the different "Free" companys about setting up a test arena to try your thesis out. Warbirds and AW have tried to varying degrees with some of those ideas and it was almost a total waste of time.
 Its been pointed out that the masses want unrestricted gameplay for the most part, with  the odd 1 life scenario thrown in. Must we hit you over the head with a SHAW BIBLE to make you see the light?  
summary: The masses have spoken..not          extremely interested.
         
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Hopefully AH _ping-

Ottawa,Canada
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Ozymandias_KoK

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 1999, 10:09:00 AM »
Yeah, it sure does seem like "Here it is, this is great, you'll love it 'cos I said so, and you must abide by it."  This community sorta don't go for that.  (Hell, even a King of Kings can't go against community wishes! -- Tho sometimes, summary execution of leaders of rebellions works.  )

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Offline jmccaul

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 1999, 02:10:00 PM »
Ish posted a REALLY long message so here's a condensed version :

MY TEST WAS VALID BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKED IT

I WON'T ANSWER ANY SPECIFIC GAMEPLAY QUESTIONS BECAUSE I AM RIGHT

I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE

 

dogsta

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 1999, 03:01:00 PM »
why don't we just put this topic on the back burner till the beta EH  
then ish should ask htc for a test arena for his idea(personly I think it's a good one,but i think it would only really be good in a seperate arena,then I could go to the main fart around learn how to get killed real well then go to the "REALISTIC"arena and try not to repeat)
just my $.043can $.02 us and I think two partriges in a pear tree  

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there I'll be....        A perfect target  


[This message has been edited by dogsta (edited 09-26-1999).]