Author Topic: Free Health Care for All Americans? (Read 2270 times)

miko2d · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:25:24 AM »

Rude: I personally feel that anyone over the age of 60 should recieve free healthcare in this country....all free...meds, surgery, etc.
It is those folks that have earned the right and have worked a lifetime so that I might enjoy what I have today....to ignore them is a crime.

That is all B.S.
They did not work enough to provide for their own retirement. Or at least did not save/invest enough but rather consumed what they created.
They did not care to endure effort and expence of having enough children and those they had are half-literate and spoiled.
They elected politicians who enacted ruinous policies.
They wasted all the treasure/goods received by US from the world as a result of the inflation-financed trade deficits and outright government default in 1971, they wasted all the wealth they saved on not having/raising children and still somehow ended up with holding trillions of dollars worth of obligations (US treasury bonds) that unborn children somehow owe them. Talk about taxation without representation...

Now they want the children of those few considerate enough to have them and bring them up properly to slave for them like no medieval surf (1/3 output confiscated) or slave (1/2 output confiscated) was forced to.

If you and people like you feel personally obligated to them, you are free to pay for them through charitable foundations, if you have spare funds. Feel free to save money on having a children - why have them when you can rely on coercing other people's children to pay for youe retirement.

banana: Education is paid for by taxpayers, and so is the reconstruction of Iraq. Why not health insurance or health care for all American citizens?

Much better case can be made for abandoning the public education that for using it as an example of a successfull program.

miko

ra · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:27:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by muckmaw
So in order to give someone else Free medical treatment, I have to start reaching into my pocket to pay my own medical bills?

I am being penalized for being a productive member of society.

That hardly seems fair to the working class.

Check-ups and dental cleanings are covered by insurance because it's been shown that these procedures actually save the insurance industry money in the long term. It's a preventative measure.

Paying your own medical bills is a penalty? I don't get it. You pay your own mortgage, don't you?

As far as preventative measures go, people are not cattle, they can take care of themselves however they like. Skipping a dental visit doesn't have nearly the long term consequences as being obese. Should we regulate obesity in the name of saving our healthcare expenses?

ra

Wanker · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:33:01 AM »

From experience in reading this BBS, I know that some of you hate welfare. Fair enough. But what about all those hard working people making minimum wage or living below the poverty line. Most of these folks work just as hard, if not harder, than most of us do....and yet they get no benefits of any kind.

Is it asking too much that the government invest in the healthcare of the working poor? Wouldn't a healthier workforce be good for business and the country as a whole?

Rude, why only support healthcare for the elderly? Why stop there? Isn't a 40 yr old hotel maid who makes $7 hr that has worked for 20 years deserving of health care?

Tumor · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:57:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude

I personally feel that anyone over the age of 60 should recieve free healthcare in this country....all free...meds, surgery, etc.

It is those folks that have earned the right and have worked a lifetime so that I might enjoy what I have today....to ignore them is a crime.

I dunno Rude... I have a bit of a gripe with that. They (the Seniors) gave us Social Security. If you boil it down, what they've done with Social Security is hand us and OUR kids a bill for thier retirement. Ok, your right, we DO owe them but IMHO we're gonna be (already are) paying plenty. So, I figure they can pay insurance and buy (at least partially) thier own damn prescriptions/health care. I'll retract my statement and formally apologize for my lack of respect right after I draw my first Social Security check (in appx 2028... ya right).

Honestly.. when I think about the "free prescription for seniors" idea the Govt had (haven't followed.. is that still in the works?) and then go outside and see Pops and Granny cruising along at 35mph in a 55mph zone in a freekin brand new Caddy, my blood boils. (Ok maybe I'm biased... but here's an example: My Grandad is freekin loaded. A true miser to say the least, he goes out of his way to get the doc to give him lots of "sample" packs of his meds by whining that he can't afford them. Then walks outside, jumps in the new Tahoe and drives out to his very serene 20 miles from nowhere 150,000 dollar home... IN ARKANSAS (check the property values in Hillbilly country to get my drift).

miko2d · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:01:30 AM »

banana,

Your intentions are good but you are thinking and speaking in lying cliche's propagated by socialists - most likely without realising it.

You can do a lot of benefits to the people in a free-market way, without resorting to coercion. You can work to produce what people demand. You can fund the causes you deem worthy. Nobody would stop you.

Government is an institution holding territorial monopoly on violence.
Any time you say "Why doesn't government...", what you are really saying is "Why don't we use armed goons to force people do whatever I like them to do."

working people making minimum wage or living below the poverty line. Most of these folks work just as hard, if not harder, than most of us do....and yet they get no benefits of any kind.

Those people are paid teh marginal value of the product/service they provide to the customers. There is no industry in US that reaps extraordinary profits employing unqualified labor and if there were, the competition would have surely driven the wages up and profts down.
Also, it's not the nominal but real wages that are important. maybe if the governmenmt did not raise the food and other goods prices by price support policies and tariffs, teh minimum-wage buck would buy more stuff.

You can do a lot of benefits to the people in a free-market way, without resorting to coercion.

The word "invest" has a specific meaning - "To spend or devote for future advantage or benefit". People have no problem investing in projects that they see as bringing advantage, in fact they search for such opportunities.
What you are talking about is not "investment" but forced redistribution of wealth.
Just because you perceive it as bringing advantage to your political goal, it does not constitute an investment to the people who het their wealth confiscated under the threat of an enforcer's gun.

Incidentally, there are free-market ways to attract private investment funds to finance the personal education/healthcare of individuals. Education/healthcare administered properly do bring positive return on investment.
It is actually the structure of our legal system that prevents investors from exploiting such opportunities.
Private investors can profit by investing into machinery, commodiry, cattle or securities but not by investing in education of bright young people. And of course the state that created such a situation is willing to help by further intervention...

miko

Eagler · « **Reply #20 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:06:45 AM »

isn't it "free" already for those who don't have coverage?

just go to any emergency room and I'd bet over 80% of the ppl sitting there without a true "emergency" are sitting there because they don't have insurance and know by law they can get free medical attention... I've seen it everytime I have been in an ER.

muckmaw · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:08:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ra
Paying your own medical bills is a penalty? I don't get it. You pay your own mortgage, don't you?

As far as preventative measures go, people are not cattle, they can take care of themselves however they like. Skipping a dental visit doesn't have nearly the long term consequences as being obese. Should we regulate obesity in the name of saving our healthcare expenses?

ra

No, paying someone elses medical bills is a penalty. I work, I pay insurance. You're saying on top of paying insurance, I should pay massive deductibles, and for check ups so someone else can get better medical attention?

I don't know much about this, but it's my understanding that no one is allowed to die on the street in the country.

It's a bad idea because it sets a precedent. Everyone is entitled to healthcare in the US. Followed by everyone is entitled to a house. Follwoing by everyone is entitled to a car.

Sure, I'm exagerating, but where do you draw the line?

Hell, I already pay for a school my daughter does not attend.

Wanna open that can of worms?

And if people do not go for checkups, that ends up costing us all money down the road. Do people take care of themselves? Hell no. Will they be more or less inclined to make that appointment for a check up if they have to shell out $300.00 for it?

I think we all know the answer.

Sixpence · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:15:48 AM »

Well, I often wondered how much business spends on healthcare, and if universal health would be good for business. I thought it would be great for small business who cannot afford to offer a good healthcare package to their employees.

Wanker · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:20:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Eagler
isn't it "free" already for those who don't have coverage?

just go to any emergency room and I'd bet over 80% of the ppl sitting there without a true "emergency" are sitting there because they don't have insurance and know by law they can get free medical attention... I've seen it everytime I have been in an ER.

That's precisely my point, Eagler. This situation should not be acceptable to anyone. Emergency rooms should be for emergencies, not as a place for medical care for the underprivileged.

Tumor · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:21:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by muckmaw
Do people take care of themselves? Hell no.

Your absolutely right. Another thing that gets me irked is when I head to the local military hospital (I'm active duty). It NEVER fails there's loads of retired folks there. Ok, I'm fine with THAT, the did earn that, no doubt about it. But I find myself disgusted at the number of retired folks in the hospital because of a lifetime of really bad habits. When I'm standing in line to see my doc, behind some old guy in a wheel chair, looks like he wieghs about 300lbs, is wearing one of those oxygen tubes and has a pack of freekin Camels in his shirt pocket, I always think to myself "geez dude, how many years have you had to get on top of this crap?"

Tumor

Wanker · « **Reply #25 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:23:58 AM »

Quote

Sure, I'm exagerating, but where do you draw the line?

I draw it at the borders to our country. Apparently some of my more conservative friends on this BBS do not. They are perfectly willing to spend hundreds of billions on rebuilding a foreign country, yet when asked to help their fellow working countrymen, they balk.

To me that is not logical, or right.

miko2d · « **Reply #26 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:25:04 AM »

Sixpence: Well, I often wondered how much business spends on healthcare, and if universal health would be good for business. I thought it would be great for small business who cannot afford to offer a good healthcare package to their employees.

If those businesses are not profitable enough to pay market compensation to attract employees they need, why would you want such wastefull businesses to continue to operate a your expence?
Businesses grow big and have money to pay because they are profitable. And they are profitable beacuse they turn scarce resources (labor, materials, time) into products demanded by customers.
A company that is not profitable is wasting resources that could be better used elsewhere to satisfy customer's demand.

miko

Udie · « **Reply #27 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:31:14 AM »

I don't know how it is in other cities or states, but I do know that Houston has a couple of county hospitals. They base the ammount you pay for medical care on the ammount of money that you make. They get all into your personal business to determine how much you make. I had surgery there for free when I was 21 years old. Would have cost my 15,000 had I paid for it. So that was great!

That being said any time I had a doctor visit it was a 4 to 8 hour wait for a 5 to 10 minute visit. It took about 4 months total to get it done. Now that I have insurance I could have had the same thing done in under a week and only paid zero

So the way I look at it is the "poor" folks can go use the county hospitals, they won't be turned away (really from any hospital, i never have anyway) I'll use the other ones that don't take so long.

I guess my main point is that every american already does have free healthcare, they just maybe don't know that.

muckmaw · « **Reply #28 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:37:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by banana
I draw it at the borders to our country. Apparently some of my more conservative friends on this BBS do not. They are perfectly willing to spend hundreds of billions on rebuilding a foreign country, yet when asked to help their fellow working countrymen, they balk.

To me that is not logical, or right.

What about illegal aliens living here?

Do they get free healthcare too?

I mean, they're not American, but they're human. Why should we exclude them? I guess we'll have people hopping the fence, not for work, but for that gall bladder surgery they've been needing. Why not? It's free in the good ole' USA.

AHGOD · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2003, 10:38:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by banana
From experience in reading this BBS, I know that some of you hate welfare. Fair enough. But what about all those hard working people making minimum wage or living below the poverty line. Most of these folks work just as hard, if not harder, than most of us do....and yet they get no benefits of any kind.

Is it asking too much that the government invest in the healthcare of the working poor? Wouldn't a healthier workforce be good for business and the country as a whole?

Rude, why only support healthcare for the elderly? Why stop there? Isn't a 40 yr old hotel maid who makes $7 hr that has worked for 20 years deserving of health care?

Not my fault they make so little. Get some edumacasion and get paid better. I enjoy my health care the way it is and I pay my taxes. Sorry if the little guys get left out, but hey I guess you want us to pay for them too. Welfare is for lazy arse people who populate this world with 7 kids and expect the citizens of the US to take care of them.

Coming from being in the USAF as an enlisted member I know what it is all about not having that much money and raising a family. Make what you want out of this but the people working behind McD's should have to pay what I pay for coverage. Screw umm, sink or swim. I brought my Don't P in my Ool life raft.