Author Topic: Free Health Care for All Americans? (Read 2213 times)

miko2d · « **Reply #60 on:** September 30, 2003, 02:06:58 PM »

Udie: STFU dumbarse you know not of what you speak.

What, did you participate in some voluntary action? My appologies then.

Rude: ...especially Miko the Hard Hearted

You are over-generalising based on a very narrow discussion. We are talking politics here (at least i was) - meaning the use of state's monopoly on armed violence to coere people into acting against their will. That I oppose, whatever the excuse.
Making people do things by threat of violence is oppression, even if they are good things, which in many cases they are not, once you consider the side effects.

As for moral issues separate from politics, I wholeheartedly support all kinds of uncoerced care for other people - charity, cooperation, etc.

Also, people support free market not because they begrudge the workers their salaries. Quite the opposite - it's the free market only that can provide sustained increase in welfare for the workers. Governments do not create wealth, entrepreneurs do.

miko

Gunthr · « **Reply #61 on:** September 30, 2003, 02:14:30 PM »

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Call me a heartless Liberal, but there you have it. I only want to help out 99.5% of the US population.

Thats fine. Help them all you want. Just mind your own business, because I don't believe its a good thing.

You can help them right now, you don't need a law passed...

Wanker · « **Reply #62 on:** September 30, 2003, 02:52:41 PM »

Just think of where society would be if we all minded our own business and stopped thinking of ways to help each other....

You guys make it sound like every government social program has been a bad idea. Surely you don't believe that.

miko2d · « **Reply #63 on:** September 30, 2003, 03:10:34 PM »

banana: Just think of where society would be if we all minded our own business and stopped thinking of ways to help each other....

You guys make it sound like every government social program has been a bad idea. Surely you don't believe that.

Actually I do. The free market operates in such way that people can selfishly promote their own welfate only by serving the most urgent needs of other people most efficiently.
It may seem counterintuitive at first but system based on cooperation rather than competition would cause collapce of civilisation.

Price mechanism and profit have very necessary informational roles - directing resources towards the satisfaction of the most urgent needs of the people in the most efficient way.

Government programs try to improve on teh function of the free market. They always cause outcome contrary to what the implementers desired. It's not even that their goals are questionable - just that they never work and cause more problems, prompting for more government intervention.

Why don't you read "Economics In One lesson" by Henry Hazlitt for explanation how and why government programs never work out.

miko

Udie · « **Reply #64 on:** September 30, 2003, 03:18:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by banana
Just think of where society would be if we all minded our own business and stopped thinking of ways to help each other....

You guys make it sound like every government social program has been a bad idea. Surely you don't believe that.

Not at all, unless.....

The people paying for it don't want to. To me this is the basis of liberty. Why should anybody be forced to do anything they don't want to do? Why should my tax dollars go to pay for an abortion if I feel that's murder? Why should my money go to pay for anything I don't agree with? This is part of the foundation of my conservatism and why I think our nation lost it's way long ago. Forcing somebody to pay for something else is a form of slavery.

Beyond that for me there's a matter of trust and efficiency. I don't trust ANYBODY in our congress, the ones who spend the tax money. They NEVER 'save' money by cutting back on spending, the way 99% of everybody else in the country does it always has to be more revenue, through higher taxes if your a democrat. Then there's the efficiency or lack there of. How is it more efficient to send money into the burrocracy in DC then have it peddled back to the states. How much actually gets back to the states? 60%? less? I know in my heart that our tax dollars finds it's way into our "representatives" pockets. Just look at their pension plans. I mean good Lord! WTF?!?!?! then they give themselves raises every year. It's been 2.5 years since I had a raise, why should they get one when all they do is run the country into the ground?

Then there's the whole FACT that they shun their constitutional duties on a daily basis. NONE of the social STIGMAS they have put on us in the past 50+ years are in the constitution. NOWHERE does it say anything about social security, medicare or any of the socialistic programs we have. It does say that if it's not in the constitution it's the pervue of the states. These things should be done in the states, hell then I might even support 1/2 of the programs.

all that being said, I have zero faith right now in either party that we have in Washington. I would go as far as to say I doubt 1/2 of them have ever read the constitution. I'd also go as far as to say that if I were in congress, I'd read it everyday, the whole thing. It only takes about 15 to 20 minutes to read........

Gunthr · « **Reply #65 on:** September 30, 2003, 03:51:26 PM »

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Just think of where society would be if we all minded our own business and stopped thinking of ways to help each other....

You guys make it sound like every government social program has been a bad idea. Surely you don't believe that.

banana, you might be missing the point, unless you just disagree, which would be ok. The concept that I am operating from is not obvious unless you give it some thought.

Forget partisan politics for a moment. Forget taking care of our seniors or poor peeps for a moment. Just think about government, and what they should do, and what they have no business doing, from a standpoint of FREEDOM for those who are governed.

Some of us believe that a government's job is to do only a minimum of action to ensure an orderly society. No more than is absolutely necessary.

In my family we revere the seniors, and we do take care of them. I come from a family of 10, and my sibs were all prolific. Some are rich, some are average, some are poor, according to the talents God gave us. We take care of our less well-off. We chip in to buy second hand cars, hand me down clothes, whatever. We fullfill our self-imposed obligations to love our mother and father, our brother and sister, and children.

I don't need government to tell me where to apply my charity dollars. I'll decide that, thank you.

Wanker · « **Reply #66 on:** September 30, 2003, 04:11:10 PM »

I understand where you're coming from, Gunthr. Makes perfect sense. But the trouble is, we're not all family.

Unlike some people here, I don't fear our government and believe that they could do a decent job providing some form of medical insurance for all Americans.

Relying on the goodwill and kindness of the private sector to do the right thing and ensure coverage for all is never going to happen, IMO. Big business won't give paid health care insurance to low wage workers unless required to, and small businesses often can't afford to even if they want to.

A comparable analogy may be something similar to safety features in automobiles. Car manufactures could make cars much more safe, but they only add safety features that are mandated by the federal government. Car manufactures are never going to be ahead of the safety curve out of their concern for our welfare.

Sometimes, big brother needs to step in and say they're going to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I think on this issue, it's time for big brother to do so.

Flame away!

Udie · « **Reply #67 on:** September 30, 2003, 04:22:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by banana
I understand where you're coming from, Gunthr. Makes perfect sense. But the trouble is, we're not all family.

Unlike some people here, I don't fear our government and believe that they could do a decent job providing some form of medical insurance for all Americans.

Relying on the goodwill and kindness of the private sector to do the right thing and ensure coverage for all is never going to happen, IMO. Big business won't give paid health care insurance to low wage workers unless required to, and small businesses often can't afford to even if they want to.

A comparable analogy may be something similar to safety features in automobiles. Car manufactures could make cars much more safe, but they only add safety features that are mandated by the federal government. Car manufactures are never going to be ahead of the safety curve out of their concern for our welfare.

Sometimes, big brother needs to step in and say they're going to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I think on this issue, it's time for big brother to do so.

Flame away!

What about when big brother won't do the right thing? All that you said is fine and dandy and would be great if people could actually be trusted to do it and not rob us of our tax money. The government doesn't trust the average citizen to make the "right decision" so it makes it for us. Gee I thought that was King George's job

didn't we fire him 226 years ago?

If they could be trusted to do right with our money I'd say, let the states do it. Let's follow the constitution......

medicboy · « **Reply #68 on:** September 30, 2003, 04:36:22 PM »

This is a subject that affects me directly, so I have a question for whom ever started this post.

Is your thought of Govt supplied health care simply that the govt would pay the bill, or would you put everyone that works in the health care field on the Govt payroll?

If you mean the govt picking up the bill, forget it, the whole health care industry would go under in a year, no hospitals, clinics, ambulances could afford to do calls and get paid $.10 on the $1 of whats billed. By this I mean what they do now. When we bill medi-cal $1000 for an ALS 911 call, we actualy get paid about $100 and we can't bill the pt for the rest. So in the end we might break even or lose money on medi-cal calls. If the govt starts paying all bills this way no body will be able to operate.

If you mean placing everyone in the health care industrie on the Govt payroll, it would be financialy impossible. I am all for it, mainly because I would have better pay, bene's, and retirement, but it just couldn't happen.

Curval · « **Reply #69 on:** September 30, 2003, 04:51:15 PM »

Talk to the Brits about the "National Health".

capt. apathy · « **Reply #70 on:** September 30, 2003, 05:30:52 PM »

the bigest problem I see with our healthcare system (or lack of any real system) as it is, is that it encourages people to stay on welfare.

it's not deadbeats who get screwed here, it's people trying to get by on low wages.

I've met many people who couldn't afford to work. not that they couldn't make money, but most entry level jobs (like you'd get if you'd been on welfare and had no recent work history) have no health plan.

however we do provide healthcare for those on welfare, but once you start trying to pay your own way, they stop providing.

especialy if you have a child with a long term health issue. there are people out there who are willing and able to go to work, but they know that the best thing for their family is if they sit at home and collect a check.

I made a lot of sacrifices when first starting out(long hours, little sleep, little food) to keep my family off the welfare roles, it took just about everything I had. looking back on that I can easily see how a something as simple as an accident that left me unable to work for a couple months could have locked my family into that situation.

you look after those less fortunate, mostly because it's the right thing to do, but also because fate is fickle and you could be the unfortunate one tomorrow. and if (God forbid) one day you find yourself there, would you like the guy you are now deciding if your kids deserve medical attention? I hope so.

Gunthr · « **Reply #71 on:** September 30, 2003, 05:41:56 PM »

Quote

I understand where you're coming from, Gunthr. Makes perfect sense. But the trouble is, we're not all family. - banana

No. The fact that we are not all family has no bearing what so ever. One of my brothers and his wife have adopted two children -who were obviously not of our family.

We've been conditioned to accept this kind of coercion you suggest by whatever liberal dogooders who happen to be in power at the moment who want to use a new law to acomplish whatever social purpose they currently believe in - usually because they think it will get them elected or re-elected to office.

But its counter productive. Again, ask yourself why goverment subsidised housing complex becomes a drug ridden, crime-pocked slum within a short few years. Why? There has to be a reason that happens, whether its in Seatle or Florida?

Just allow a tiny shift in your thought process ...

trolla · « **Reply #72 on:** September 30, 2003, 06:07:07 PM »

Darwinism still is alive i see.

What if : you got struck by a car at aged 19 years and have so far no income or paid for ...

what if that 19 years old kid dont have parents ?

what if you are born as a mentally disabled person (autism) or something, and your parents dont wanna do the care ?

what if you are a socalled low iq guy that is not able to make youre own living (under 85 in iq) and is set back on the streets.

And ( this I have seen by myselve fully function people just makeing a crack and getting into deeep depressions)
what about those guys or girls, they prolly have been working for ages and get a stop.

Should we just get rid of them ?

how many of these people can pay for themselve ?

I can only see one set of people doing it here and thats it, the rest is in ohters hands.

Gunthr · « **Reply #73 on:** September 30, 2003, 06:12:19 PM »

I never said that there should not be a safety net provided by the government. That is a legitimate government function.

This thread is about "FREE" NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.

Torque · « **Reply #74 on:** September 30, 2003, 06:13:30 PM »

I'm surprised how large Drug companies are still allowed by the govn't to screw over the average American senior citizen for their prescription meds.

They come by the bus load over the border on drug buying junkets to buy their meds alot cheaper so they can maintain their quality of life as they know it.

Bush's reply and (the only reason it seems came up with a new bill) to Maine Rx is a slap in their faces, unlike Clinton's bill (which was opposed by the Repubs) were the govn't agencies would effectively be consolidated into one major buyer thus owning nearly the entire market and aquiring leverage to keep prices down, Bush's bill keeps the agencies split up which in turn reduces their clout and keeping the gravy flowing.

Rude you were saying?