Author Topic: Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?  (Read 1050 times)

Offline GtoRA2

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« on: October 08, 2003, 02:56:24 PM »
Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?


I was talking to a friend about this. I have never been in a union, and I just do no see what we need them for now. I really think they do more harm then good.

Unions where started to protect workers from the Evil back when they could be evil. Back when they could force workers to work in unsafe places for, unfair money. Basicaly abuse people.

Now the government offers many workers protections. Corps can not make you work in unsafe places or they get sued or the government stops them. They pay good money in most cases cause the person can go find work at another company ETC.

I see lots of harm unions can do though.

Example one: Teachers unions, how the hell did they ever get in place? They are basically government employees how where they ever abused?  Ok now on to my example. The Fremont unified school district, I know of a teacher who missed over 90 days of work in his first 6 months, his only penalty? He had to pay the cost of the sub after so many days missed, but he made more then enough money to do this. Same teacher when he did show up, read the news paper all day or only worked half days. He was a spec ed teacher.

They can’t fire him cause of the union and his tenure.


To me it sounds like almost a protection scheme, they force union people to pay, yet they offer little protection anymore, the unions force a company to pay more, then the company turns around and sends the jobs to India or china?


Oh my dad paid into the carpenters union retirement for 25 years, the money was supposed to go to my mom when he died yet the *******s in the union have her jumping through hoops like you would not believe to collect. Like wanting both his and her birth certificates, there marriage certificate, hell they even asked for his, military discharge papers. They have denied my mom 2 times over something that clearly was not right by there own regulations books. We are lucky my cousin is a lawyer of my mom would be screwed out of the money.

Still am I wrong? Why do we still need them?

Offline Gadfly

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2003, 03:16:24 PM »
It is not they we need them; it is that people have the right to form them if they want them.  Texas is a Right to Work state, unlike many, which means that even if the jobsite is Unionized, you do not have to belong to work there.  States where this is not so seem to be pushing the Socalist edge, though, and I think there are more of them than RTW states.

Offline GtoRA2

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2003, 03:20:42 PM »
But if you do not need the union why would you want  to be in one lol the dues are like an extra tax.

Offline Mini D

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2003, 03:21:20 PM »
Unions have plusses and minuses that's for sure.  But, when it comes to the "why we need them" you realy just have to look at the U.S. work environment prior to thier existance.

Sometimes unions get a bit carried away with themselves and kill companies.  But, without them... there'd be many more instances of companies getting carried away with themselves and killing employees.

I'd like to see a bit more balance between the two.

MiniD

Offline mietla

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2003, 03:22:28 PM »
What exactly is tenure and what is the rationale for it?

Offline Toad

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2003, 03:25:16 PM »
The only thing worse than a union is NO union.

You think you don't need 'em?

Hah! Sudddenly remove all the Unions and Union Contracts and then see what Management of both (formerly) Union and non-Union companies does.

I assure, the "plight of the workingman" will get immediately and seriously worse.

It's Yin and Yang. At the extremes, both Mangement and Unions are nightmares. But you need both to strike the balance.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GtoRA2

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2003, 03:31:05 PM »
mietla
 Tenyear ? Maybe I am spelling it wrong?  It what school teachers get after so many years. For Fremont unified school distrect, it means if you have your tenyear, you do not get fired for anything short of criminal action.

Offline GtoRA2

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Toad
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2003, 03:33:36 PM »
You really think it would get worse? I have never been in a union, how do unions help me or anyone else in the technical industry?

Doesnt the government offer much of the protections that unions used to? I know they WERE needed back when there where no rules in place to protect the worker.

Offline Gadfly

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2003, 03:35:19 PM »
Tenure.  Not the correct term for unions, BTW.  Unions operate on a first in/last out hiring/firing scheme, as opposed to hiring and firing on merit.

Tenure is given primarily to University Professors to assure them of freedom to express un-popular positions and studies, and be free from the worry of having to please anyone to retain their job.

Offline mietla

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2003, 03:40:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
mietla
 Tenyear ? Maybe I am spelling it wrong?  It what school teachers get after so many years. For Fremont unified school distrect, it means if you have your tenyear, you do not get fired for anything short of criminal action.


yeah, I know how it works, but what is the rarionale behing?

Why don't Safeway clerks or software engineers have a tenure.

Seems like a very stupid and counter productive idea (although I can see that it attractive to those who get it).

Offline Mickey1992

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2003, 03:45:11 PM »
My old roommate's first real job out of college was working in the HR department of a manufacturing facility (which closed shortly after a 3 month strike).  He was in management and was therefore not unionized but the rest of the plant was.  He said it was a nightmare.  Output was so low because they were unable to fire the worthless people.

He told me once about how he put a new jug of water on the water cooler because no one had replaced the empty one for more than a day.  He got chewed out for doing this because a unionized employee had the job of replacing the water jugs and he was doing that person's job.  This was viewed as being a threat to the unionized employee's employment.

Offline Toad

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2003, 03:45:12 PM »
Whether or not you are presently in a Union, Unions and their work rules and safety standards, etc., have already affected you and your job.

Basically, Unions set the standards for this stuff. In my industry, pilot on-duty hours are a direct result of Union research, lobbying and efforts. And we considered it a "success" when we got the maximum limit to 15 hours on duty.

Now, in the clear bright sunshine when everything's working fine, 15 hours on duty will leave you plenty tired but capable. In the dark of night, in the middle of a thunderstorm with one engine shut down and a hydraulic problem... it'd be better if your crew was fresher than that.

Still, I can remember being on duty 18 hours in the early days.

That's what Unions do.

OTOH, Unions can be simply ridikuloose. I remember when they wanted to keep the Flight Engineer on the B-737. That's featherbedding pure and simple. NO ONE benefits by being intentionally inefficient. Far better to accept the new technology and help the company maximize profits and thus GROW, providing new useful jobs for those 737 S/O's.

But rest assured, Managment would/will push to the extreme if it will fatten their bonus check. On duty 55 hours? Where's the problem? They'll never see it, because they only see dollar signs.

Again, though, Unions will push to the other extreme.

In short, the job you have, the balance you have stems either directly or indirectly from the Unions.

If you think the government will cover your butt, just look at Fed duty rigs for Commuters versus Major airlines. The job of a Commuter pilot is, if anything, tougher than flying for a Major. But their rigs are MUCH worse. Why? They came late to the Union, too late.. and the Government da n sure didn't look out for them. Their rigs STILL suck and they've had Union help the last few years. They're getting better, but they have a long way to go.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GtoRA2

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2003, 03:45:52 PM »
mietla
 I agree, it sound pretty lame. LOL, I want that kind of protection in my job.


"we are going to lay you off"
"No you are not I just got tenure!!"

It's very lame that teachers once they reach  a certian point in their career and just kick back and become untouchable.

Offline Ripsnort

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2003, 03:48:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Unions have plusses and minuses that's for sure.  But, when it comes to the "why we need them" you realy just have to look at the U.S. work environment prior to thier existance.

Sometimes unions get a bit carried away with themselves and kill companies.  But, without them... there'd be many more instances of companies getting carried away with themselves and killing employees.

I'd like to see a bit more balance between the two.

MiniD


Agree 100% with this assessment.

Offline LePaul

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Unions, are they as worthless as they seem?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2003, 03:57:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Whether or not you are presently in a Union, Unions and their work rules and safety standards, etc., have already affected you and your job.



...and your wallet...

Wow, check those car prices...  :rolleyes:

Seriously...the only union Ive been in was the Teamsters when I worked for UPS for 2 years.  I found them useless.  Yea, we got good benefits and pay...but my fondness for the union dropped as it became clear we were just cogs in a machine....and the only time we heard from them was when they told us how to vote and other such kooky things.  The Union thinks we dont know whats best for us...we have no input on dues going up, and if we have an issue/formal complaint we need them to address...well...they still havent returned my calls.

Most places that have a union, deserve it.

Sorry, I used to think great things about unions, having them set the standard for what is now policed by OSHA and such.  But I watched as a local union here all but killed a paper plant...they wouldnt take a hit in pay to let the company re organize, so down it went...then a new buyer came.  Now there are some unemployed union guys since the new company doesnt have work for all of them

The list of examples goes on and on

People who like unions typically make great money...and who knows, perhaps even the union leaders listen to their membership and work as a team.  My experience wasnt like that.  I see Unions hurting more business than helping.  I think much of what they claim to defend is duplicity with what OSHA now does.

But...enough from me...I'm sure I'll get flamed for what Ive posted :)  (BTW, my American Airlines pilot friend went from not fond of Unions to loving them...amazing what $85 an hour can buy you in loyalty...and he insists airline fares are too low...it should be higher so he makes more!  Putz)