Gonna Miss Fester

[Rutilant]

Originally posted by Steve
Rutt, I consider those who enjoy bombing and those who will pork only the fuel of all the front line bases for miles around to be two very diiferent groups of people; the former doing their thing for enjoyment, the latter doing their thing for the sick pleasure of ruining others'.

I'm the kind that makes everyone scream "HQ RAIDER!!!!!" just before i hit a refinery and turn around.

[Grimm]

I have time...  So Im going to pipe in  

FesterMA is my second favorite right now.   Trinity for some reason captured my heart.   Baltic is probably number 3.  

Here is something nice Iv encountered on the FesterMap.  I find a few more 1v1, 2v1, 2v2 type fights.   even with the feilds closer together,  the fights tend to spread a bit more.   I like that.  

I prefer to fight near odds and see if I can best my opponet.   Furballs are often just zipping around until something happens in front of your sights.   (you know a true cloud of planes)  

Dont get me wrong, those Furs are fun too,  but better is a near even fight,  at least to me.

As a Generalizmo and Strat weenie,  I dont see a problem here.  The targets are there,  Zones are there,  Its just a matter of squishing the strat.   Thats seems to be where frustrations for bomber types set in.  

Flying a single formation or even two over a facility has little effect, so nobody really wants to do it.   It requires larger coordinated strikes to really do much.   I have no problem with that.  I like the fact it promotes cooperation.   In fact I dont like the Idea that a single player can really effect many.   But thats rambling.....

Fester has given us something I thought was needed for a long time now,  a Medium sized map.    I like it.  

[muckmaw]

Actually, Grimm, I think the strat is part of the problem.

I can easily get 10 Formations of bombers to smash a Strat facility. The problem is the fact that it does not appear to have much of an effect.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Suppose I do the above mission, and hit the City and the Grunt training. So we bang both targets and the fields in this zone will be without troops for 4 hours, once the barracks gets killed.  

So I either have to coordinate a Jabo raid to kill the barracks, concurrently, or immedietly after we RTB.

Fo the amount of time it takes to make a round trip in heavies to the stratr target and back, I can lead the same 10 planes on Jabo raids, and CAPTURE the zone!

Now here is my hope for FesterMA. Perhaps with the fields closer, and the furs stalmating, a steady front line will form. I've seen it happen already. I am hoping people may turn to heavy bombing of strat as a way to break the stalemate of the front.

[Grimm]

Could be..


Im not ready with an answer on how to overhaul the strat system.   I do know that if the strat system is compleatly destroyed.   By that I mean all facilities and cities,  fuel, ammo, troops ect...   Its pretty effectively shuts down a country.  

It takes alot of effort to do that,  Im pretty sure its only been done once in the modern age of AH.  So its probably not really a valid tactic in the MA.    

Lets face it, everyone, even those saintly furball kings,  like to frustrate their enemy,  some just be besting thier opponet in a dog fight,  some by bombing a target.    Its just the level of problems it causes for the effort exerted needs to be balance.  

As much as I hate when my HQ goes down,  their seems to be some decent chances to defend it with the 163s and it repair can be added by player resupply.   Its a way more balanced thing than say... Fuel!  

Back toward topic,   FesterMA still offers Strat targets the same as any map,  In some respects having a clean shot at them from High alt might be easier with the closer/lower alt fights.  

I really cant come up with a down side to this map,  unless its less High alt dog fights.   Yeah!  there ya go!  

[runny]

Originally posted by sax
[Context -- that's a cold medicine, right?] ...my best meat was screaming thru the pile-up.

Glad to hear someone's "best meat" is getting some action.

In other news...

Right now I really only have time to fly Squad Ops, but I spent a couple of hours on Fester's map, and I gotta say -- Good job, Fester.  Good job.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
In my opinion, the problem with "REAL" WW2 air combat is that, well, it just isn't any fun.  I don't want to fly around for half an hour in faiiled hope of seeing an enemy plane.  Instead, I want to know that if I fly for five minutes in a particular direction, there will be plenty of red icons for me to target.  Admittedly, it is easier to get irrecoverably sucked into massive furballs when one misjudges the ebb and flow of the fight (e.g., getting low and slow with 7 SpitNikLaLas on my high six), but avoiding that danger is part of the fun and challenge.  I like to furball AND land my kills.

After playing other (supposedly) more "realistic" air combat sims (i.e., IL2), it seems to me that AH was designed with certain (excellent, IMHO) gameplay concessions in order to promote dogfighting (e.g., view system, gun lethality, etc.).  In my opinion, furballing against live humans is just about the best gaming experience there is.  For me, it's not about "realism," it's about the FIGHT and getting better at it.  And as far as I can tell, the only way to get better is to throw yourself into the fray and put your virtual life at risk.  (When I get owned in my Spit V by a P47, I recognize that I lost to someone who is considerably more skilled than me and I try to learn from the experience.  For me, this is part of the fun.)  Throwing myself into a fight beyond the point of no return, getting some kills, and somehow making it home is just about as good as it gets for me on a PC.  But, on occassion, I want a more "realistic," mission-type experience, so I load up IL2 (it looks much better, to boot).  

In sum, I think that it is a mistake to try to force AH to be something that it likely was never intended to be.  (Nonetheless, if you would rather cherry pick or blow stuff up than dogfight, I don't see why you can't successfully do that on the new map.  Folks like me, on the other hand, cannot find fights quickly and consistently on some of the other maps, most notably Big Isles.)

Just my $0.02,

JNOV

LoneStar. Of course I agree with you about real WW2 not being fun. The guys who flew back then never knew if they would make it down alive, and thousands didn't.

I recently quoted a WB sage - Jedi - wisest sage in WB if you ask me. I'll quote him again here - it was that good. Jedi said "Remember, REAL air combat wasn't FUN at all. The closer we get to REAL, the farther we'll get from FUN." But he later added an important caveat, which was to say that there was a limit to how far the same principle would work in reverse. That is to say there is a limit to how far we move away from REAL, and continue to move towards FUN.

I'm on the middle ground. I didn't care for the naive but well intentioned campaign of the Historical Realists to have everything modelled on reality, and to remove all gameplay concessions. For example, no way can I fly without icons.

But AH is going too far the other way. We've had idiotic gameplay for as long as I can remember. No hourly charges to keep the tards out! That's why I was looking forward to TOD.

But to get to a situation where the airfields are practically in sight of one another just so that we can get to the "action" in 30 seconds is going over the top. And I really don't care for the "fly-till-you-die" vulch crap. I was perhaps unfortunate in that in the limited number of sessions I was able to fly on FMA, a lot of what I saw was vulching.

OK, so folks will say that the FMA is more "fun", but Quake and Doom are "fun" for the kids who play them. I fly AH because I want a WW2 simulation, not Quake with wings.

[Toad]

Originally posted by beet1e
I fly AH because I want a WW2 simulation, not Quake with wings.

Well, seeing that you do nothing but cry and moan about the "state of the MA", perhaps it has dawned on you that you're in the wrong place?

Seems the majority of the player base is voting with their mouse; any night you choose, you'll see a huge crowd in this pitiful Quake MA compared to the tiny crowds in all the other AH arenas combined.

Face it chum, what YOU want everyone else to do is not what THEY want to do.

And it doesn't look they're coming around to your way of thinking. Au contraire, with the release of FesterMA, they're getting "Quakier", for which I thank cod and all his fish.

I suggest you try the CT at least until TOD comes out; it's much closer to your stated desires. Then, you can make TOD General and order folks to play the way you want them to play. That'll show 'em!


(and probably empty that arena too..)

[Grimm]

We've had idiotic gameplay for as long as I can remember. No hourly charges to keep the tards out!

Yes,  Thats right...  Everyone knows that Rich People are never Jerks and always play well.  

Middle Class and low income people are the problem right?  Those that dont have alot of money to throw away?

Beetle dont you think AH sould be restricted to only people with large incomes?    

::Grumble Grumble Grumble::    


Sorry but that superiority statment always angers me.....

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Toad
Well, seeing that you do nothing but cry and moan about the "state of the MA", perhaps it has dawned on you that you're in the wrong place?

Seems the majority of the player base is voting with their mouse; any night you choose, you'll see a huge crowd in this pitiful Quake MA compared to the tiny crowds in all the other AH arenas combined.

Face it chum, what YOU want everyone else to do is not what THEY want to do.

And it doesn't look they're coming around to your way of thinking. Au contraire, with the release of FesterMA, they're getting "Quakier", for which I thank cod and all his fish.

I suggest you try the CT at least until TOD comes out; it's much closer to your stated desires. Then, you can make TOD General and order folks to play the way you want them to play. That'll show 'em!


(and probably empty that arena too..)

Muhahaha! That's a bit rich, coming from you, Chum... My entire postings about gameplay last week on FMA probably amount to less than 0.001% of all the pizza map whines we've had to endure to date. All that whining from the furballers because they had to fly more than 2 minutes to get to the "action". When pizza was up, did YOU not realise that YOU might be in the wrong place? Gawd, I told you enough times to get to the DA. That didn't work, and the only way to placate you guys was to bring the DA to the MA - lol. One could go further, in light of your lauding of Quake style gameplay, and say that you could never be satisfied with a mere WW2 flight sim, so we've had to create Quake within AH! QWW - Quake With Wings - Blue Mako was so right!

As for the player base voting with their mice, check back when pizza is up. I don't think you'll see any appreciable drop in numbers when compared with the other maps at any given time of day. It's still 100-odd at Euro times, maybe 350+ late Euro evening - whatever map is on. They still turn up - whether or not I'm in there. I'm so sorry to burst your bubble.

But if you are so fond of Quake-style gameplay, next time the pizza map is up, why don't you play...  erm... Quake? Download it tonight. Let me know the URL. I'll play it myself when the children's maps are up! That way, gameplay on FMA will resemble a reasonable (first) attempt at WW2 gameplay.

Early night - Toodle-Pip.

BTW, if you're going to use long words, learn to spell them properly. It's "aficionado". Conserve your Fs. You never know when you might need them!

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Grimm
Yes,  Thats right...  Everyone knows that Rich People are never Jerks and always play well.  

Middle Class and low income people are the problem right?  Those that dont have alot of money to throw away?

Beetle dont you think AH sould be restricted to only people with large incomes?    

::Grumble Grumble Grumble::    


Sorry but that superiority statment always angers me.....

I wasn't the first to say it - it was funked.

But hey, I'm just a limey - I come from a third world country - ask Lazs.

[Citabria]

beetle I'm still waiting to see a map or at the very minimum a map design from you. I see mountains of the same stuff repeated over and over by you about what you think is the best design for the main arena.

take 5 minutes from your full sweetying schedule and take a piece of paper and draw out a design for a main arena. take a moment to think about what you want it to look like.

did it ever occur to you maybe only YOU can design a map exactly how YOU want it?

well?

you can reply with a bunch of hot air full of sound and fury signifying nothing or you can show me your design for a main arena that is exactly how you want it.

[Hornet]

OK, so folks will say that the FMA is more "fun", but Quake and Doom are "fun" for the kids who play them. I fly AH because I want a WW2 simulation, not Quake with wings.

Nothing gamey about energy and angles, thats all successful furballers use. Most of us are busy people -- what is the advantage of sitting and waiting for the dweeb to figure out that his 10k advantage no more helps him than it hurts me.

The whole debate is pointless anyway -- while both sides tend to label the other skilless, the good sticks seem to have no trouble creating scoring opportunities regardless of field spacing.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Grimm
Sorry but that superiority statment always angers me.....

larger the income, smaller the balls.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by Toad
So where's your beef? You can still fly your way.

Is the problem what Laz so often points out? Are you unhappy that Fester's map doesn't channel other players into gameplay into the areas YOU particularly favor?

I really don't expect people to fly the way I want.  That won't stop me saying that I am disappointed with the direction the MA has taken.  In truth, the MA has been turning into Quake ever since the lemming hordes arrived about 12 months (or more?) back, it's just that FMA is much more suited to their style and makes it more evident.  It's a simple fact that I just don't really enjoy sniffing armpits and fertiliser with the furball crowd.  I just get irked when I shoot someone down and then have to kill them again less than 5 minutes later.  The close bases mean that having a good fight with a few bad guys leads to a quick trip to the tower as the instant respawn crew turns up overhead...

[Citabria]

lol mako dont you get it?

the players make the maps. HTC aproves them and gives the players latitude to do new things.

the direction MA maps go is up to whoever makes the maps.

are you gonna be a beetle clone and whine about what you want and what you think is better?

or are you going to do somthing about it?

you guys crack me up. I hope I can piss you off enough with my map that it inspires you to create your own. I honestly would be interested in seeing an actual piece of thought drawn out on paper about your own perfectly designed arena.
thats what happened when I decided to make my map, I didnt like the direction the MA was going and I used the tools HTC has offered to every player who wants to make an arena map the way they want it.

you have two options in the way the Main arena goes:

1. you can sweety and moan like so many about what you want and what you dont want and wait for the slim chance that someone else will make somthing you like. you will acomplish nothing doing this. you will inspire no one to your cause and nothing will change to your liking.

2. you can build your own map. for gods sakes at the very minimum you dont have to build it just make a design for it to show others what you think will be a better "direction" for the MA HTC is willing to trust its players and their map designs. you build it they will try it. they are very interested in what you build when you actually take the time to think through exactly what you want in a main arena and THEN BUILD IT!