Author Topic: Gun Ownership Saves Lives!  (Read 2204 times)

Offline gofaster

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Gun Ownership Saves Lives!
« on: October 22, 2003, 10:18:53 AM »
A few weeks ago there was a heated discussion about whether certain guns should be outlawed due to their impact on public safety and the safety of police officers.  The catalyst for that thread was an article about a police officer who was nearly killed by an SKS assault rifle while chasing a Chevy sedan full of armed gangsters.

So here's the other side of the coin.

In this instance, a private citizen used his gun to protect members of his community.  Cleared of the killing and lauded as a hero, the citizen did suffer some post-traumatic stress and only recently openly acknowledged his role in the event.

Its an interesting read.

The link can be found here:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Florida/03FloridaSTAT04101403.htm

In case that URL gets recycled, I've included the text of the story below.

Quote
Man speaks out 21 years after fatal shooting of fleeing mass killer

Associated Press

MIAMI -- Some people called Mark Kram a hero, others a vigilante. Twenty-one years ago, the scrap metal dealer took the law into his hands and fatally shot a deranged teacher who was riding away on a bike after killing eight machine shop employees.

Kram buried the most compelling moment from his past, not even sharing it with his two teenage children until this year. In his first interview about the case in two decades, Kram told The Miami Herald about the mass carnage and the aftereffects.

Kram was working nearby when Carl Brown, who was on psychiatric leave from school, fumed about the shop's refusal to accept a traveler's check for a $20 repair on his lawn mower motor.

Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun slung over his left shoulder Aug. 20, 1982.

Kram stepped out of his shop. A hysterical Ernest Hammett, who worked across the street, ran toward him, shouting, "A bunch of people just got killed at Bob's!"

Kram ran to his office and grabbed two guns. Both men jumped in Kram's car.

Six blocks away, Brown was moving at a leisurely pace. As Kram pulled alongside, he said Brown moved as if he were about to fire again.

From the back seat, Hammett pointed the .38-caliber revolver out the driver's window. Kram grabbed the gun to steady Hammett's hand. They fired what was meant to be a warning shot.

"I have to tell you that both our hands were on that gun when it went off. I don't know whose finger was on the trigger," Kram said.

The bullet hit Brown in the back and severed his aorta, but he kept going. Kram swerved into Brown to stop him.

"I never felt like a hero. I did what I thought was right at that moment, but the truth is I set out to stop Brown, not kill him," Kram said. "Taking a life this way is a terrible thing. Unless you've done it or served in Vietnam or something like that, you don't know what I'm talking about."

Kram, now 52, said his children were surprised to learn of the media onslaught that engulfed their father. "I took out my scrapbook and let them read all the newspaper articles from the time," said Kram. "My 17-year-old daughter said: 'You did the right thing, Dad. It sounds just like you. You don't like to see people hurt."'

His 14-year-old son asked, "Dad, you did that?"

Kram has been haunted all these years by one question: Did he do the right thing in playing judge and jury?

"If you had received the letters full of venom I did, you'd understand," Kram said. "I took the law into my own hands and some people have a big problem with that, and I understand it."

Kram said he has found his own answer.

"What goes around, comes around," he said. "If what I did was wrong, I figured I would have been punished. But I've had a good life."

As then-State Attorney Janet Reno weighed whether to charge Brown's killers, Hammett, a black man, worried about being involved in the death of a white man.

"They're gonna fry me," Hammett, who died in 1989, kept telling Kram. "Those were very scary days."

Reno ruled Brown's killing justifiable to prevent imminent death or injury to others.

Bob Moore, who ran the shop with his mother, was in the Bahamas on the day of the shooting. Brown's victims included Moore's mother Ernestine, 67, and uncle Mangum Moore, 78.

"If I had been in the office that day, I would not be talking to you today," said Moore, now 66. "I'm glad Mark did what he did. He should have gotten a bunch of medals. ... I would have hated to have that guy sit in prison costing taxpayers money."

Offline popeye

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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2003, 10:28:49 AM »
"Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun..."

I'm guessing that this isn't the "gun owership" to which you refer....
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline Curval

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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2003, 10:39:22 AM »
I must be missing something....how did gun ownership save lives in this case?

The vigilante killed the gunman AFTER he had mowed down a bunch of employees of that store.

Furthurmore, the vigilante didn't even mean to kill the guy...he did so by accident.

LUCKILY an innocent bystander wasn't killed.

I suppose the answer is that it is 100% certain that the gunman was going to kill more people and that the vigilante saved them?

I'm glad that incidents like this just don't happen where I live.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2003, 11:02:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by popeye
"Brown mowed down 11 employees at Bob Moore's Welding and Machine Shop, killing eight, and pedaled away with his 12-gauge shotgun..."

I'm guessing that this isn't the "gun owership" to which you refer....


The nutcase could just as easily have brandished a machete (its been done before).  Then again, had he done so the kill count probably would've been lower.

Still, a lunatic riding around with a shotgun is a clear threat to the community.  If he's willing to whack 8 people over a $20 bill, no telling what he would do to someone on the street blocking his way home.

One thing that struck me was that the perp was a teacher.  I guess its true - kids really do drive people crazy!

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2003, 11:38:26 AM »
Those guys are lucky they didn't get pegged for murder.  As much as the guy on the bike deserved it, that wasn't self defense, and the man wasn't threatening anyone.  It doesn't sound like they even saw the shootings at the lawn mower shop, so they were going off unverified info when they killed him.  

But like I said, the guy deserved it.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2003, 11:43:09 AM »
According to the CDC:

Quote
Annual Firearm Deaths:  28,663 (2000)

Age-Adjusted Death Rate: 10.4 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)

Death Rate for Males Ages 15-19: 22.7 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)

Death Rate for Black Males Ages 15-19: 62.2 deaths per 100,000 population (2000)

Firearm Suicide Deaths: 6.0 per 100,000 population (2000)

Firearm Homicide Deaths: 3.9 per 100,000 population (2000)
sand

Offline Gixer

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2003, 12:29:09 PM »
Glad I live in a country where gun ownership is close to impossible. I find the arguments "for" gun ownership most amusing.



...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2003, 12:55:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
Glad I live in a country where gun ownership is close to impossible. I find the arguments "for" gun ownership most amusing.



...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~


We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live.  Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it?  The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)

I am speaking from the perspective of having no fewer than 4 firearms pointed at me by criminals..never again.  Now I shoot back(If in a position to)

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2003, 02:08:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
Those guys are lucky they didn't get pegged for murder.  As much as the guy on the bike deserved it, that wasn't self defense, and the man wasn't threatening anyone.  It doesn't sound like they even saw the shootings at the lawn mower shop, so they were going off unverified info when they killed him.  

But like I said, the guy deserved it.


How do you see that?
What do you think the dude was doing with a shotgun slung over his back?
Duck huntingLOL?
He just killed 8 people in cold blood I would say he was a BIG threat to society.

He could have killed at any moment there after who knows and who would want to take that chance? Not me.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2003, 02:10:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live.  Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it?  The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)


How about crime by people like these guys:

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - A $246 million lawsuit was filed against the designer, marketer and a retailer of the video game series "Grand Theft Auto" by the families of two people shot by teenagers apparently inspired by the game.

   

The suit claims marketer Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc., designers Take-Two Interactive Software and Rockstar Games, and Wal-Mart, are liable for $46 million in compensatory damages and $200 million in punitive damages.


Aaron Hamel, 45, a registered nurse, was killed and Kimberly Bede, 19, of Moneta, Va., was seriously wounded when their cars were hit June 25 by .22-caliber bullets as they passed through the Great Smoky Mountains.


Stepbrothers William Buckner, 16, and Joshua Buckner, 14, of Newport, were sentenced in August to an indefinite term in state custody after pleading guilty in juvenile court to reckless homicide, endangerment and assault.


The boys told investigators they got the rifles from a locked room in their home and decided to randomly shoot at tractor-trailer rigs, just like in the video game "Grand Theft Auto III."


In a suit filed Monday in Cocke County Circuit Court on behalf of the victims, Miami lawyer Jack Thompson and local lawyer Richard Talley alleged the game "inspires and trains players to shoot at vehicles and persons."


"These kids simply decided to take the thrill of that game out to Interstate 40 and started pointing at cars," Thompson said in a telephone interview Tuesday.


Thompson, who said he sent letters to Sony and Wal-Mart to drop the game before the shootings, said, "It's not like this is coming out of the blue, they chose to ignore this danger."


San Mateo, Calif.-based Sony and Bentonville, Ark.-based Wal-Mart did not return calls for comment Tuesday. The lawsuit alleges the retail giant sold the game to the Buckners about a year before the shootings.


Douglas Lowenstein, president of the industry Entertainment Software Association, called the shootings "an unspeakable tragedy" but said blaming a game played by millions for the boys' actions was "misguided and counterproductive."


"There is no credible evidence that violent games lead to violent behavior," he said. "While video games may provide a simple excuse for the teenagers involved in this incident, responsibility for violent acts belongs to those who commit them."


Thompson has made similar claims in the past and lost, notably a $33 million lawsuit against video game makers stemming from the 1997 school shooting near Paducah, Ky., by a 14-year-old boy.


The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) ruled in the case last year that it was "simply to far a leap from shooting characters on a video screen to shooting people in a classroom."


At least I don't need to worry about getting shot because some kids enjoy a stupid video game and try and play it for real.

Arguments go both ways my friend.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2003, 02:18:09 PM »
If you read the American Rifleman.... every month they have a dozen or so examples of firearms ending criminal behavior and preventing violence against citizens..  it is the section titled "the armed citizen" and they have never had trouble filling the column.   The examples are much more recent and clear cut than this bizzare story.
lazs

Offline Gixer

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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2003, 03:35:33 PM »
Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.

Even the police here don't carry firearms or feel the need to, infact they don't even wear vests. So I certinly feel much safer right here thanks.

So the chances of me being in a position where someone pulls a gun on me and I wish I had mine, probably very close to nil. As for you... 4 times already? I'd be feeling kind of unsafe.




...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~





Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
We find it amusing that only the criminals have guns where you live.  Bet that gives ya a warm fuzzy (wet) feeling don't it?  The way society is heading, crime with illegal guns will get much, much worse before it gets better. :)

I am speaking from the perspective of having no fewer than 4 firearms pointed at me by criminals..never again.  Now I shoot back(If in a position to)

Offline Mickey1992

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2003, 03:47:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.


Just wait until Gangsta Rap becomes popular in NZ.

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2003, 03:57:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mickey1992
Just wait until Gangsta Rap becomes popular in NZ.


:rofl

LOL them blokes will run them gangsta rappers outta there country like WE should have:aok

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2003, 05:20:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
Compare New Zealand's crime rate to that of a city in US of equal population and compartive deaths per year by firearms. I could probably count the number of deaths here on one hand. And the number of violent crimes here involving firearms on two hands.

Even the police here don't carry firearms or feel the need to, infact they don't even wear vests. So I certinly feel much safer right here thanks.

So the chances of me being in a position where someone pulls a gun on me and I wish I had mine, probably very close to nil. As for you... 4 times already? I'd be feeling kind of unsafe.




...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~


We felt safer here too during the 1950's.  Time *will* catch up to you.