Author Topic: Hiroshma Vault  (Read 1512 times)

Offline Jack55

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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2003, 03:06:21 PM »
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Those battleships were obsolete?


They raised most of them, patched them and sent them back into the war.  So they had some value to them.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2003, 03:11:00 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
Even if they could hold on, would US have let Japan consolidate their gains and grow strong? I do not believe so and neither should have they.

miko


Right, but it was alot easier to get the American people to agree with war after pearl. Would they have been able to declar war w/o being prevoked?
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Offline mietla

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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2003, 03:17:30 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d


 Japanese executing tens (hundreds) of thousands chinese for the assistance offered to the US crews. Right?

 miko



Anyone caught a History Channel "Last Secret of the Axis" last night?

It claimed 250,000 Chinese killed in retaliation for this raid.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2003, 03:17:58 PM »
Jack55: They raised most of them, patched them and sent them back into the war.  So they had some value to them.

 They though so. Does not necessarily mean they were correct. There were no ship-to ship battles. Maybe they would have made better use of resources cutting the hulls to scrap and building more ships that really mattered - carriers, escorts (cruisers, destroyers) and troop/cargo ships.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2003, 03:27:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
Anyone caught a History Channel "Last Secret of the Axis" last night?

It claimed 250,000 Chinese killed in retaliation for this raid.


No one doubts retaliation, but would those same chinese have died at the hands of the japanese anyway. What was the total number of chinese killed by the japanese? Those bombers were not the only U.S. planes on chinese soil. There is always retaliation in war, this does not prevent an attack. It is expected that the enemy will retaliate.

What is in question is the military gains of the raid, which can be debated til the cows come home.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2003, 03:32:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Right, but it was alot easier to get the American people to agree with war after pearl. Would they have been able to declar war w/o being prevoked?


FDR wanted to fight Hitler, but even PH didn't get him that war.  FDR and Congress still waited for Germany to declare war on the US.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2003, 03:38:13 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
You quoted my note before the reply as if I was claiming teh conspiracy. I have no opinion for or against the "bait" hypothesis. Japan was provoked - most certainly. The attack was expected? Could be. Conspiracy to use the pacific fleet as bait? I do not know and do not really care.
 There is a good book about it but I have a few shelves of books I need to read first.

 Not only didn't US military believe that battleships were obsolete, there was a lot of resistance to the development of the naval aviation and aviation in general. At least if Doolittle and Mitchel are to be trusted.

 Nobody wanted to believe that a measly plane could sink a big ship with a bomb - even despite demonstrations in the1920s. Especially considering that in those times it took 5-8 years to build a battleship and we know how fast the aviation developed in 5-8 years.

 miko


I did a book report in the 5th or 6th grade on Billy Mitchell. If I remember correctly, he sank a ship proving that ships could be sunk with planes. He actually missed on the drops, but the ship still sank. The near misses had destroyed the hull. That is just from memory, it was a long time ago. I remember finding so much information on him I had to cut my report short because I did not have the time to put in all the info I had dug up. That was long before the internet, it was alot of work, but alot of fun.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2003, 05:38:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Sixpence
I did a book report in the 5th or 6th grade on Billy Mitchell. If I remember correctly, he sank a ship proving that ships could be sunk with planes. He actually missed on the drops, but the ship still sank. The near misses had destroyed the hull. That is just from memory, it was a long time ago. I remember finding so much information on him I had to cut my report short because I did not have the time to put in all the info I had dug up. That was long before the internet, it was alot of work, but alot of fun.


this is also described in the book Flyboys along with his court martial

book tells that he told his pilots to miss on purpose knowing the concussion would crumble the hulls and sink the ships

also how intel found out about midway which gave us the edge to wipe out their navy at that battle - interesting book for sure - and i don't even like PTO scenerios :)
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2003, 12:04:46 AM »
Couple of points here.

1. The Japanese and the Chinese were at war long before the Doolittle raid. The Japanese had already attacked the Chinese  without provocation. The Japanese were already in the process of targeting and killing Chinese including civilians by the thousands before Pearl Harbor.

2. The Doolittle raid was a military operation undertaken in a time of war by a military force against a beligerant nation. Please note that this was AFTER a declaration of war and AFTER an attack by the Japanese PRIOR to a declaration of war by the Japanese. The fact that they couldn't translate it and deliver it in time is moot, that was their own fault.  The targets selected were of military value. They COULD have attacked the Emperor had they wished as he wore the uniform of his countries military and the palace location was known.

The US was not responsible for the war crimes committed by the Japanese before or after the raid. The responsible nation was in fact the Japanese. Any attempt to blame the deaths of citizens of a beligerant nation at the hands of another beligerant nation as a result of another combatant nations attack during a time of war is plane idiocy.

The US was in fact unaware that the Japanese did not have plans for an attack against the mainland. The thought was that one was imminent and there was no Naval power in position to stop an attack after Pearl. An actual invasion was not really feasable as the Japanese didn't have the strength to make it plausable. They neglected to inform the US about that at the time. :rolleyes:

As to the redistributiuon of Japanese forces by the raid. It would be only common sense that having demonstrated the US could hit the Japanese homeland once they wold do so again. Leaving the homeland open to attack without a creditable defense would be rather idiotic. The Japanese did move air assets back to the homeland for this purpose as well as naval ships on coastal patrol. Don't believe it, look it up, it's simple history and has already been broadcast.
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Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2003, 02:48:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
this is also described in the book Flyboys along with his court martial

book tells that he told his pilots to miss on purpose knowing the concussion would crumble the hulls and sink the ships

also how intel found out about midway which gave us the edge to wipe out their navy at that battle - interesting book for sure - and i don't even like PTO scenerios :)


Its a very good book. I've learned allot of things I didn't know and a few I wish I hadn't.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2003, 07:29:15 AM »
I am afraid that, as time passes and living memory of those events is extinguished, the Germans and Japanese will finally succeed in portraying themselves as the "victims" of World War II.  The Japanese, especially, have never come to grips with their part in starting the war and inflicting untold suffering on the Chinese and many other nations.

Shuckins