Your overall opinion on Squad Operations.

[daddog]

I am looking for what you guys think about Squad Operations. Good and bad, Friday and Sunday. Not that I want to change anything, I think I run them perfectly , but I would like to see an open, honest, yet “considerate” discussion on the strengths and weakness of this popular weekly event.

If you can’t be civil then don’t post.
------------------------
CO CM daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels
Roster
Noses in the wind since 1997.
Democracy is a process by which the people are free to choose the man who will get the blame. - Laurence Peter

[Squire]

Hey cool thread

Ok, I have a few things that I have been pondering on for a few months. Take these as discussion points if you will. I make these comments as a player and squad CO of an S.O. squad.

*Frame COs. I think that Squad Op COs should command all three frames, not just one. There is a "disjointed feeling" to having a different CO every frame. A CO may just get the hang of it, get to know his squads, the objectives, ect, and then "thats it" he's done, and a new CO gets the next frame. Consistancy will bring a higher caliber of command. In the end, you wont CO any more frames in a given year, its just you will do your "stint" in one S.O., rather than 3 or 4 seperate ones.

*Possibly, a "corps of COs" that are both willing, able, and dependable to do the above.

*Aircraft use. Again, this is a consistancy point. Rather than have a different ride, I would propose that squads are either assigned a "light" or "heavy" role in the event, and where at all possible, fly the same a/c for the 3 frames. Each squad say does a "heavy" stint" about 1/3 of the time, in bombers or jabo. This allows some skills to be developed, and again, improves play over all. The other 2/3 are "light" assignments.

.

*Radar in events where it makes sense to have it?

*Attacker-Defender ratios improved. If we do a S.O. that has one side all in fighters defending, the ratios should reflect that, 50-50 will not work.

*Possibly, a loosening up of objectives that allow more leeway to the COs to prosecute the campaign. Objectives are given, fields assigned, the rest is left up to the COs. For the Sunday Op, the lower #s would need to ensure a tighter grp of targets than the Friday Op.

*Set down guidelines for the Friday and Sunday S.O. that are the same. Max # of squads per base, whatever other rules need standardization?

There you be.

[AndyH]

Ditto on the same COs for all three frames, good idea.

There should also be some way of the CM "evening up" numbers imbalance", for example removing some targets that needed to be hit by the side with lower numbers. This would have to be coupled with stricter enforcement of the "you must attack/defend all targets on the list" (to prevent the massing of forces on one base).

One thing I have noticed recently is that almost all COs seem to mass 90% of their resources in one area, we end up with either a mass furrball or a one sided fight. This could be prevented by forcing n% attack and n% defence in the orders to the side COs. However we need to do this without completely restricting the side CO's tactics. Another way would be to enforce all or certain bases to be attacked within the first hour.

[Holder3]

An interesting point that Squire (Warloc) has made. As a SquadOp Admin CM I have been putting in many hours between Frames (Saturday so I can get orders out Sunday) updating maps and putting out new orders for the next Frame CO. As is my style, I try to allow lots of leaway for their own imagination in tactics. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. I think this is largely due to the changeover of Frame COs. Some are really into it with lots of experience, and some are new at it. Some have the time, but many don't. Anyway, from my perspective:

PROS:
Reduces Admin CM involvement in the SquadOp after the design is implemented.
Will allow for an enthusiastic Frame CO to run with a design.
May help the immersion aspect for the players.
Reduces the chance that the next Frame CO is out of touch (work, RL, apathy, drunkeness...)

CONS:
It may be a bit too much to ask a Frame CO to do three in a row.
If we get an enthusiastic Frame CO who is totally out of touch with the Squad COs, it could put a real damper on the experience.

[Holder3]

Other thoughts on SquadOps.

I rarely fly Sunday due to fatherly duties. Fridays are pretty much my goof-off night so I fly and design them (halloween excepted)(and what is that Guy Fawkes day about? ) . If there was one event that could be dropped it would be the Sunday SquadOp (slams helmet on head and drops into fox hole).

The old arguement about alt caps should be carefully considered by the SquadOp Admin CM. They should be implemented only  if there is some overwhelming reason for them (none come to mind).

I try to even out the numbers, although there are times where one side should have more than the other. For example, in the last frame of Bomber Wars I added another late joining squad to the American side as they were fielding a lot of bombers and fighters at that time, and I felt that it would be reasonable to do so while not hindering the German abilities to hit the buffs.

There are HUGE gaps in our abilities to stage fights for the early years of the European war, in Russia, and in South-East Asia due to lack of appropriate aircraft. It's a pity, but I can understand the reluctance of HTC to design aircraft that will be little used in the MA. The point is, with these limitations, we need more experimental or imaginative ways to use what we have available. We could take a look at some of the Snap Shots for ideas that we can expand on for Squad Op designs.

We might want to try a SquadOp Team/Terrain Team discussion on a forum about what additional things could be done with terrains that would improve overall game play. In particular, the addition of more ground items in ALL terrains would be welcome for me as a designer, as then there are more targets to hit, different variables to play with. After all, much of the war in aircraft was about hitting things on the ground and preventing the other side from interdicting your ground forces. We really could use more:
- boats of all sorts
- vehicle/train convoys
- facilities to attack (factories, towns, ports, bridges, etc.)
- areas of buildings that could be hit (cities)
- flak batteries

I know the terrain team is busy, and updating old terrains may not be cool, but it couldn't be as time consuming as doing it from scratch.

[RedDg]

Not enough jugs !



seriously daddog, I enjoy SO very much.

[AKIron]

I think I speak for my squad when I say we enjoy them a lot. I think my favorite scenarios are those with bombers and their escorts vs fighter defense. The targets don't have to be revealed to the fighter defense but the defenders should be given a list of probable targets which do include the actual targets.

I don't say it often enough but I very much appreciate the effort that goes into planning these things.

[Sikboy]

Squad Operations is my favorite event ever in any Flight Sim.

There seemed to be a dip in the "fun factor" when we came back from the 2002-2003 Holliday season, but this probably had more to do with me than with Squad ops, because we've (the Shills) have been having a blast over the past few months.

As a squad CO, and possible Side CO, I'm not very interested in running all three frames. But I do think it is important to have the CO assignments posted at the start of the Op, so that ifi there is a conflict arangements can be made.

The only problem I've had was Squads blowing off a frame, or blowing off an assignment, which (at least for Friday Squad Ops) has been gone over already.

-Sik

[jordi]

Squad ops has gone WELL for the DAMNED Squadron overall.

The GOOD
We are getting better quality Write Ups and clearer instructions from the CM's.

Detailed maps and Coherent planning for the most part by the Frame CO's. Most Frames got into a lot of detail. Some frames don't require a lot of planning and stuff - "Go here and DEFEND"

Good match up of planes as can be expected from the Plane set. Not many glaring bad choices or combinations of plane types that oppose each other.

The BAD and UGLY
Really just the last Frame I was CO in. We were give the n whole map to defend without at least some knowledge of some targets the enemy might hit. This was a frame where an ALT CAP of the Bombers would have been nice since 1/2 of my planes could barely reach the ALTthe bombers were at when they were able to even try to engage.

Getting ALL of the Squad CO's to reply to the FRAME CO when they get a request as to what plane type / mission thier squads wanted. This forces the Frame CO to guess as to potential assignements. Also getting the Squad CO's to reply that they got and understood the orders that are sent out so you KNOW they understand what they are supposed to do - this helps cut down on all of the question 5 mins before the Frame STARTS !

Overall I think FRI Squad ops had improved over the last few months.

None of the Squad have been a problem to work with. Most let the Frame CO know what they want or make suggestions to help fix a Frme plane if I come up with a real goofy idea.

[68falcon]

As a frame CO I found that getting answers from the squad CO's the biggest problem. I had no Idea what most of the squads where proficent in or what rides they preferred or even if they understood the orders and there objectives. I did screw up at one point and sent out 2 wrong targets, correction was made and emailed,  but found out that most squads didn't know there was a mistake to begin with.
Suggested that there be a forum for the Friday night event where the Frame CO could post everything and the squads and players could check in and read what is expected of them and there squads. Making it say by (DAY ?) evening all Squad CO have to post that they read and understood there assignmnets.

[TheBug]

My problem with Squad Ops, all AH events in fact, is pilot survivabilty.  I can't count the number of times one side or even both have been decimated in the very short span of 45 mins.  I know that it has a lot to do with the furball mentality, but can't something be incorporated that rewards those that land their planes, versus those who dive into a furball kill three but just end up getting themselves killed?

If I want Axis/Allied rides and furballs I can just go to the CT.  Events should be more than that.  IMO of course.

I know it 's the competition but for reference(if you haven't already)  check out http://www.s3events.com follow their lead. It is by far the best online event I've ever flown in.  Too bad ya can't say the same about the sim anymore

[bizket]

First let me say that I really enjoy the squad ops but I think there a couple of things that could make it better.

1. Keep the same basic planeset for every frame and assign each squad to the same AC for each frame. The larger squads should also have the option to fly a couple of different AC. For example the MAW could fly bombers and provide there own fighter escort.

2. IMO there has to be a bigger penelty for death.  The way it is now if a squad gets wiped out there arent really penelized for the next frame. What I would like to see is if a squad takes say 60% losses they should be placed in a 2nd line AC. For example the first frame a group is in 51Ds and they take 60& losses, next frame they would be in 51Bs. If the take heavy losses in the 2nd frame then 3rd frame they would be in a 47 D11.

3. Get rid of the airstarts, its gamey and causes more confussion then anything. Its not going to kill anybody if they have to spend an extra 30 minutes climbing to alt. Plus it would add a little more realism when the escorts try to rendevous with bombers.

4. Historical squads need to be given first choice when it comes the sides and rides in a setup that involved there RL namesakes. In a late war ETO setup the 56th FG should be flying jugs for allied not 109s for axis. It would be nice to see all squads put into a couple of different groups. USAAF, RAF, USN, VVS, IJN/IJA, LW and Unaffiliated.  In a pacific setup the USN and IJN groups should get first choice and the rest will fill in as needed.

5. The last thing is pretty minor but it would be a nice addition. I would love to see what the victory conditions where before the series even started. The would give everybody an idea of the big picture. Also campaign ribons for the squads to put up on there websites would be a nice addidtion.

Thats it, my gripes are done. to the CMs, you guys are doing a great job.

[Marco50]

Hey Daddog! <> same here man (wouldn't change a thing)

~~~~~Also i think u do good with the squad ops also....lol (truth)
 <><><>

[Squire]

"2. IMO there has to be a bigger penelty for death. The way it is now if a squad gets wiped out there arent really penelized for the next frame."

Big Ditto here, I like the rest of your points too.

[ghostdancer]

Interesting points Biz. Let me address them.

[list=1]

• While the same planeset is used throughout a 3 frame squad ops (most of the time) it is up to each CiC to assign squads to the planes. We don't want to tie their hands by assign specific squads to planes and then locking them in. Also obviously their are always better rides in the planeset and once again we don't want anyone locked into a certain plane all 3 frames. Basically while most squads don't ahve a problem say .. flying a Boston III for a frame .. doing it 3 frames in row is a different story.

There we leave it up to the CiC to the frame to assign as he see fit but encourage him to rotate squads around  so nobody gets stuck with certain planes all 3 frames.

• Agreed .. but we did try a system in Sunday Squad ops to award and penalize more for death. The consensus of the sunday squads is that it did not add to the fun but just made things more complicated. Daddog will start weighing the results more for survival. Meaning hit all your targets but all die doing so and the other side will probably win the frame. The more survive and hit targets the better your side does in the final analysis for the frame.

But we are thinking on other things and welcome suggestions.

• Air starts are built into some maps. You either hate them or love them. Yes, they are gamey. But at the same time trying to get a fully loaded Lanc or B17s up to 26K alt takes considerable time. Plus, the frame length is only 2 hours. So also have to deal with some time constraints. But I believe only the German map has air starts.
• Hate to say this but Historical squads will never get precedence for a certain aircraft in squad ops just because they are historically based squad. All squads have the right to ask for certain planes to be assigned to them and then its up to the CiC to decide.

In most cases you simply just have to ask the CiC for a certain plane type and they will do what they can to accomodate.

Same in assigning squads to certain sides. But again no squad will have the right to insist on just flying for Allies because they are a historically based allied squad. Their request will be taken into consideration but because of play balancing and the fact that most squads prefer flying allies .. well all squads have to be willing to fly Axis. And at times compromising and flying planes that they do not prefer.

This is to give all participants a fair shake without establishing preferences or bias toward any one group. All can make requests which will be evaluated by the CM and CiC. You just can't get what you want all the time is all.

• Not sure on Friday Squad Ops .. but victory conditions usually sent out on the Sunday Squad ops with each objectives write up. Along with description of results from last frame.

Ribbons would be nice .. just have to get the time to make them.
[/list]